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Tribe is a discussion forum, nothing more. The crimes committable on Tribe include (but may not be limited to, check your local laws) copyright infringement, ITAR violations, obscenity, defamation, "domestic terrorism," and in some states with broad definitions, "stalking." Of these crimes, none, not a single one is a criminal act until determined by a court of law and in every case the accused is innocent until proven guilty, either beyond a reasonable doubt or to a preponderance of evidence (as appropriate). We manage claims of copyright infringement to the requirements of 17 U.S.C Section 512(c)(3)(A) which mandates extra judicial action on the basis of valid complaint. Other than servicing DMCA obligations, we will not act on a criminal complaint save to refer the complainant to the police or an attorney of their choosing and to preserve as we can any relevant evidence on our system. We will absolutely comply to the limits of our abilities with any final ruling of any US court. In all the crimes committable on Tribe, it is far better in the pursuit of justice that Tribe maintain the user records and that those records remain consistent, not fragmented across a series of unsubscribed alts. Such records will be maintained and provided under subpoena to appropriate authorities.
Our policies are for the protection of all members of Tribe's community. Accusations are commonplace on Tribe, some valid, many fabricated, some carefully staged. In every single case we have looked into we have found plenty of evidence of bad behavior on both sides. A uniform rule of intolerance for ill-considered speech would depopulate Tribe.
There are people on Tribe who are "trolls" and trouble makers and generally irritating. We are willing to work to smooth out these issues on Tribe; we find that it is best to keep people subscribed as long as possible because it is absolutely impossible to block an individual's access to Tribe short of making Tribe a closed system without any privacy, and that is not the purpose of Tribe. Users that need such a system need a different system than Tribe. Users of Tribe must accept the limitations on mitigating the annoyance of such users on an open system that respects privacy and free speech such as Tribe.
There are people on Tribe who have and who will commit crimes. The vast majority of these will have nothing at all to do with Tribe. Some will have no known link with Tribe but will statistically be committed against other Tribe members. Some will have some relation to Tribe. There is a narrow class of crimes that can be committed "on" Tribe. The only effective action Tribe can contribute to mitigating the consequences of these crimes is to remind people that if they have any reason to fear the behavior of another person they should go immediately to the police or contact an authority and to let us know so we can ensure that evidence is preserved. If a crime has been committed, Tribe will provide the investigation with all the evidence we can. If a person's behavior is deemed sufficient to consider a restraining order, information from Tribe may support that case and we will provide whatever relevant information we have. If a restraining order is granted Tribe will use whatever tools it has to support compliance with that restraining order.
Our policies are for the protection of all members of Tribe's community. Accusations are commonplace on Tribe, some valid, many fabricated, some carefully staged. In every single case we have looked into we have found plenty of evidence of bad behavior on both sides. A uniform rule of intolerance for ill-considered speech would depopulate Tribe.
There are people on Tribe who are "trolls" and trouble makers and generally irritating. We are willing to work to smooth out these issues on Tribe; we find that it is best to keep people subscribed as long as possible because it is absolutely impossible to block an individual's access to Tribe short of making Tribe a closed system without any privacy, and that is not the purpose of Tribe. Users that need such a system need a different system than Tribe. Users of Tribe must accept the limitations on mitigating the annoyance of such users on an open system that respects privacy and free speech such as Tribe.
There are people on Tribe who have and who will commit crimes. The vast majority of these will have nothing at all to do with Tribe. Some will have no known link with Tribe but will statistically be committed against other Tribe members. Some will have some relation to Tribe. There is a narrow class of crimes that can be committed "on" Tribe. The only effective action Tribe can contribute to mitigating the consequences of these crimes is to remind people that if they have any reason to fear the behavior of another person they should go immediately to the police or contact an authority and to let us know so we can ensure that evidence is preserved. If a crime has been committed, Tribe will provide the investigation with all the evidence we can. If a person's behavior is deemed sufficient to consider a restraining order, information from Tribe may support that case and we will provide whatever relevant information we have. If a restraining order is granted Tribe will use whatever tools it has to support compliance with that restraining order.
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Re: What's really not allowed on Tribe? What do you do about borderline behavior?
Mon, January 12, 2009 - 1:44 AMThats becoming better and more ship shape, certainly getting closer than some things posted earlier.
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Of these crimes, none, not a single one is a criminal act until determined by a court of law
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Yes and no. Where there is clear sign of abuse, and where the evidence is overwhelming, it is generally considered societie respnsibility to take action where appropriate. If a batch of pro wrestlers just happens to be sitting there while a little old lady gets mugged by a guy who beats her down with a chair, most people would consider them remiss in their duties as citizens for not acting to defend her or apprehend
the aggressor.
Similarly, a crime is a crime on its own grounds and merits even in law retroactively. You can't opt out of doing your job or being responsible for dealing with abuse by invoking other peoples rights in the court system. I mean, you can, but sooner or later its going to wreck you, because A; its the ultimate green light to trolls and abusers and B; its not going to end up holding water as a legal argument.
Tribe IS culpable and that culpability is not limited by them talking their way out of it.
The instances where they should act and the means and methods whereby they should act are usually much less dramatic than unsubbing or etc, and the behaviors which they should react to are pretty obvious and not really arguable in terms of whats up.
Abusiveness is abusiveness its kind of like preganancy, you are either pregnant or not, there is no "sort of " pregnant.
Similarly, abusive people and abuse is in the worst cases incontrovertibly abuse. Any sane person can tell what it is.
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and in every case the accused is innocent until proven guilty,
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No, an abusive person can get thrown out of a bar before being found guilty in a court of law, and it is societies civil duty in protection
of other customers to throw unruly people out of a bar.
No legal judgment is required for tribe to act and esp not when there is ample evidence which cannnot be excused away.
Not only can tribe act in this manner it is actually legally obligated to protect its participants from those tribe staff know to be serious
abusers. And in fact, in some instances, tribe staff is obligated to call the police themselves.
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either beyond a reasonable doubt or to a preponderance of evidence (as appropriate). We manage claims of copyright infringement to the requirements of 17 U.S.C Section 512(c)(3)(A) which mandates extra judicial action on the basis of valid complaint. Other than servicing DMCA obligations, we will not act on a criminal complaint save to refer the complainant to the police or an attorney of their choosing and to preserve as we can any relevant evidence on our system.
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great. So now all trolls on tribe have the ultimate green light,
and your system must thus succumb to social entropy in actually a very short period of psychohistory time. probably in less than several years.
Either A; all that will be left of tribe will be trolls, and real people will move on to greener turf, or
B; Tribe will fail to act according to the actual legal obligations of all social services networks and so forth and somebody will
have the time and money to take it all the way to court. Then tribe dies by court order.
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Re: What's really not allowed on Tribe? What do you do about borderline behavior?
Mon, January 12, 2009 - 2:46 AM"No, an abusive person can get thrown out of a bar before being found guilty in a court of law, and it is societies civil duty in protection
of other customers to throw unruly people out of a bar."
Not really.
A bar is considered private property, however it is a public place. A land owner has the right to set policy that is in addition to the law, but does not violate the law (discrimination laws) and MAY 'reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason'. In addition, if they do invoke that right, the situation becomes of one trespassing, a misdemeanor. At the time the person they want to leave the property is in violation of the law.
They key point is IF they choose to do so. It's 100% up to the bar on a case by case basis. They may have somebody inside that is always a complete ass and will never be ejected because they like the person. Other times they may toss somebody out for the slightest incident because they don't like him. There is nothing that states this policy must be fair and uniform.
If Tribe chooses not to "eject" anyone without a court judgment, that's' their right. If some girl walks up to club security and says "that guy is harassing me" they ill get told one of several answers:
1. "let me go talk to him"
2. "I'll keep an eye on him"
3. "If he's bugging you, leave."
Now, in the case of an assault or battery, then an actual crime has been committed on the premises and the bar is obligated to take action, and call the cops. Security may arrest and turn the suspect over to police. The bar may press charges for the crime on the premises and go to court with the victim. They may also take out a retraining order on the patron so they legally cannot be within the boundaries of the bar.
To go a step back, and part of the 'right to refuse service' a patron may without court process be "86'd" from the bar, which is a verbal restraining order and they must stay 75ft from all sides of the physical building. If the verbal order isn't obeys then the patron can be arrested for trespassing and the police are then involved. Again, this is totally up to the discretion of the bar, and there is no legal requirement one way or the other.
There is a very large gap between what a business is legally REQUIRED to do, and what policy they may enforce. Tribe is enacting a very liberal TOU which isn't very common online anymore. You've cited concepts like "social responsibility" but that is by no means a legal one.
It should be clear though that within these rules laid down, they have never said they will allow clearly illegal activity to take place. posting of child porn, credit card numbers, and other things that aren't without the realm of "freedom of speech" will certainly be dealt with in the manner than any good system administrator will deal with, and as you pointed out, would be a situation where tribe would indeed call the police themselves.
All of the above policies deal with things that aren't illegal. Trolls aren't criminals. Trolling isn't a crime. When they follow the two prime directives of trolling the tend to keep conversations flowing where there would otherwise be no traffic. Trolls are of course, in the eye of the beholder. One mans troll is another mans conversationalist.
--S -
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Re: What's really not allowed on Tribe? What do you do about borderline behavior?
Mon, January 12, 2009 - 3:47 AMtribes.tribe.net/conflictresolution
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Not really.
A bar is considered private property, however it is a public place. A land owner has the right to set policy that is in addition to the law, but does not violate the law (discrimination laws) and MAY 'reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason'. In addition, if they do invoke that right, the situation becomes of one trespassing, a misdemeanor. At the time the person they want to leave the property is in violation of the law.
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And you are having a hard time seeing how that paralells how exactly? If tribe asks somebody to leave and they don't, then they are guilty
of similar trespassing, same thing.
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They key point is IF they choose to do so. It's 100% up to the bar on a case by case basis. They may have somebody inside that is always a complete ass and will never be ejected because they like the person. Other times they may toss somebody out for the slightest incident because they don't like him. There is nothing that states this policy must be fair and uniform.
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What you miss is that if somebody gets assaulted three days in a row in that bar by the same bully, the bar could get shut down if the
victim can show that the bar showed negligence in protecting that patron.
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If Tribe chooses not to "eject" anyone without a court judgment, that's' their right. If some girl walks up to club security and says "that guy is harassing me" they ill get told one of several answers:
1. "let me go talk to him"
2. "I'll keep an eye on him"
3. "If he's bugging you, leave."
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Again, you apologists like to pretend i'm makign mountains out of molehills, when the reality is that your trying to sweep a lot of aserious shit under the carpet.
If that same woman is actually being physically hit, and the bar staff fails to even as much as call the police, then they are legally accountable as accomplices to assault and battery.
Most of the drama that happens on tribe does not rise to this level and that is why i'm an advocate of smaller measures such as moderator support and etc.
Its the middle thats missing.
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Now, in the case of an assault or battery, then an actual crime has been committed on the premises and the bar is obligated to take action, and call the cops. Security may arrest and turn the suspect over to police. The bar may press charges for the crime on the premises and go to court with the victim. They may also take out a retraining order on the patron so they legally cannot be within the boundaries of the bar.
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And all of that is also true of higher level internet stalking, and other behaviors which do happen on tribe.
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To go a step back, and part of the 'right to refuse service' a patron may without court process be "86'd" from the bar, which is a verbal restraining order and they must stay 75ft from all sides of the physical building. If the verbal order isn't obeys then the patron can be arrested for trespassing and the police are then involved. Again, this is totally up to the discretion of the bar, and there is no legal requirement one way or the other.
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a bar is required by law on several fronts to react to protect its patrons. More importantly, if the place is rowdy but not law breaking, it will slowly loose customers of all but the rowdy sort. This IS tribes problem, because tribe is a known trollhatten and most people won't come here because of it. Lots of people have left because of it.
And over time, it will only get worse unless something changes.
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There is a very large gap between what a business is legally REQUIRED to do, and what policy they may enforce. Tribe is enacting a very liberal TOU which isn't very common online anymore. You've cited concepts like "social responsibility" but that is by no means a legal one.
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No, actually there are legal concepts about things like social responsibility and people can be held as complicit in crimes for failure to act
to protect a victim when they could have prevented a crime. Teachers are legally obligated to report any signs of child abuse, and tribe is actually legally obligated to report stalkers and it doesn't.
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It should be clear though that within these rules laid down, they have never said they will allow clearly illegal activity to take place. posting of child porn, credit card numbers, and other things that aren't without the realm of "freedom of speech" will certainly be dealt with in the manner than any good system administrator will deal with, and as you pointed out, would be a situation where tribe would indeed call the police themselves.
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Proven stalking involving threats of violence also require tribe to call he police, and the fact that they have not done so in several situations leaves them theoretically liable not only to specific law suits, but class action suits.
For instance.
Tribe is breaking the laws in order to be lazy and keep a low profile.
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All of the above policies deal with things that aren't illegal. Trolls aren't criminals. Trolling isn't a crime.
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Actually, some trolling behaviors are criminal and some are less. Libel or personal defamation, for instance,. Nobody ever does it because its petty and because our culture is rife with it, but in theory a person with the money and the time could prosecute on all sorts of issues which tribe seems to think are just fine.
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When they follow the two prime directives of trolling the tend to keep conversations flowing where there would otherwise be no traffic. Trolls are of course, in the eye of the beholder. One mans troll is another mans conversationalist.
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to be blunt and get past some of this rhetoric, every person has two natures; the shadow and the angel one might call it or in this case the triber and the troll. We all have both elements in our personality, we all have an inner troll. The question is how much a person lets that troll out of the bag, and whos in charge of the personality- which side dominates.
The cure for most trollishness is education and love and listening and understanding and etc.
But there are "trolls" and then there are TROLLS .
the difference is the series of red lines that one crosses which the other does not.
You people seem to want to pretend that i want to outlaw all mere trolling.
And that peeves you, because you want to have a place to walk and exercise your inner troll.
What you fail to understand is that i have no beef with your troll.
We all know the difference between over the red line and not, were it not for defending your right to troll we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
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Re: What's really not allowed on Tribe? What do you do about borderline behavior?
Mon, January 12, 2009 - 5:26 AM"And you are having a hard time seeing how that paralells how exactly? If tribe asks somebody to leave and they don't, then they are guilty
of similar trespassing, same thing. "
No, I didn't miss anything, in fact I said exactly that. The key part is "IF". If they ask. They ask, the boot, the person comes back under a new account. PROVE it's them? In a bar we ID everyone coming in. We have a book with everyone who's kicked out in that book. We have a verification system in place.
Tribe does not have this, and it's not feasible for them to do it (per their own stance and admission).
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"What you miss is that if somebody gets assaulted three days in a row in that bar by the same bully, the bar could get shut down if the
victim can show that the bar showed negligence in protecting that patron. "
I'm going to venture that by assault you mean "Battery". In the case of the bar, it wouldn't happen three days in a row because a crime was committed and most like police reports by the victim filed. Even if not chances are the assailant would be 86'd for a time from the bar.
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"Again, you apologists like to pretend i'm makign mountains out of molehills, when the reality is that your trying to sweep a lot of aserious shit under the carpet."
Now see, you're already name calling. You're being outflanked logically and it's causing you stress. Relax, Breathe.
"If that same woman is actually being physically hit, and the bar staff fails to even as much as call the police, then they are legally accountable as accomplices to assault and battery."
I never said hit. I said HARASSING. That's a very vague term, and a very commonly used one. The guy might have just asked to buy her a drink and she didn't like him. He could be following her around the club. He could have grabbed and ass "accidentally" on a dance floor. Who knows.
"Most of the drama that happens on tribe does not rise to this level and that is why i'm an advocate of smaller measures such as moderator support and etc. Its the middle thats missing. "
Again, I bring up a very real and valid point and it escapes you. The girl saying "harassed" is somebody on tribe with a complaint. The Moderator then either has a talk with the offender, watches the offenders threads closer, or tell the complainer to leave and then they won't be harassed. The answer given will of course depend on the complainer.
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"And all of that is also true of higher level internet stalking, and other behaviors which do happen on tribe. "
Nobody has said otherwise.
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"a bar is required by law on several fronts to react to protect its patrons."
Nope. Not one bit. No more than a movie theater, restaurant, department store, or any other business.
"More importantly, if the place is rowdy but not law breaking, it will slowly loose customers of all but the rowdy sort."
The bar will without a doubt, attract the customers they want, and those they don't want will either leave on their own or with assistance.
"This IS tribes problem, because tribe is a known trollhatten and most people won't come here because of it."
You are the only one with Trollphobia. Most people have problems with system stability and quality of service. There are less Trollphobics than there are trolls, even if you don't count the alts.
"Lots of people have left because of it."
Vague, not specific. You're arguing with abstracts. DO you have exit poll numbers as to specific reason that people left? Are you using anecdotal or extrapolation? eg: 3 people left tribe because of trolls so I'm going to assume at least 3500 people have left the network because of it." At least provide a t formula statistic if you are going to make a claim like this.
"And over time, it will only get worse unless something changes. "
The sky was falling years ago and it didn't matter then, it doesn't matter now. The troll hang out in a few select tribes or pop up on others form time to time. Turn on moderation for a tribe and they are never a problem.
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No, actually there are legal concepts about things like social responsibility and people can be held as complicit in crimes for failure to act
to protect a victim when they could have prevented a crime."
You're citing crime in progress, or knowing without reporting, like the parent that ignores the father that molests their daughter.. You're also talking about civil court when it comes to social responsibilities, which deals with legislation like the OJ Simpson Criminal and Civil cases.
Let's face it, you want tribe admins to act as police and the moderators to act as their enforcement arm for a steril totalitarian system of pure structure, order and human utopia.
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"Proven stalking involving threats of violence also require tribe to call he police, and the fact that they have not done so in several situations leaves them theoretically liable not only to specific law suits, but class action suits."
Now who's making mountains? There threat has to be a valid one. Somebody in maine telling somebody in LA they're going to kick their ass isn't a very viable threat. Two people local with a history are.
Can you cite the situations hen this has happened on tribe without any action taken? Please provide dates. If it was prior to Nov 10th 2008 then it has nothing to do with teh current tribe management.
"Teachers are legally obligated to report any signs of child abuse, and tribe is actually legally obligated to report stalkers and it doesn't. "
Prometheus I want you to quit stalking me. You're on several tribes i'm on and keep posting in threads I post on. Stop stalking me. TRIBE!!! HE'S STALKING ME!!!!!!! DO SOMETHING!!!!!!!
You mean when people do that?
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"Actually, some trolling behaviors are criminal and some are less. Libel or personal defamation, for instance,."
Libel has to cause you actual financial harm. Documented. Defamation means you have to have a character that is defameable, and if it's legitimate. Also, the person that is defaming has to have some credibility in which to cause the public to actually believe them. My posting about your cross dressing fetish is far less believable than if you were falsely shown on "To catch a predator".
Also, it must be clearly outside the boundaries of Humor and Satire, which are protected by teh first amendment.
"Nobody ever does it because its petty and because our culture is rife with it, but in theory a person with the money and the time could prosecute on all sorts of issues which tribe seems to think are just fine."
Going after tribe would be comical. Does Blogspehere come under attack for what a blogger posts? How about Livejournel? No, they get a legal "Cease and Desist" letter if a complaint is filed, they are served, they delete the content, and that's the end of it. There would only be a formal lawsuit if they failed to comply with the legal order. Tribe has already stated very clearly that they will indeed comply with ALL legal requests.
They don't it because it's petty. They don't bother because there's no money in it.
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"You people seem to want to pretend that i want to outlaw all mere trolling.
And that peeves you, because you want to have a place to walk and exercise your inner troll.
What you fail to understand is that i have no beef with your troll. "
This would be far better if you formed it as a haiku.
What I found funny was your #3 in you Moderator re-edukation kourse was basically a lesson in trolling or as you put it, "leading conversation". You call trolling, I call it banter. Conversation. People yell troll for any conversation they aren't leading. You still suffer from trollphobia and you really should look into a 12 step program.
Just to be clear, that wasn't a troll, that was a satirical sarcasm, which is a very very mild flame.
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"We all know the difference between over the red line and not, were it not for defending your right to troll we wouldn't even be having this conversation. "
Expand your definitions. I'm trolling as much as you are.
--S
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Re: What's really not allowed on Tribe? What do you do about borderline behavior?
Mon, January 12, 2009 - 6:27 AMwe ID everyone coming in. We have a book with everyone who's kicked out in that book. We have a verification system in place.
Tribe does not have this, and it's not feasible for them to do it (per their own stance and admission).
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as a systems theorist there are many ways in which to gain a probable positive and in fact usually some one merely paying attention
to the right details can spot a sock puppet or alt or etc.
The same types of behaviors manifesting in similar patterns. Right now they don't watch the patterns and they don't try to make any sense of any of it they jut ignore it all unless they think there might be legal reprussions.
it actually protects your troll and my troll better if real TROLLZ are identified and dealt with in a firm and eloquent manner attempting first to educate and then if that fails to disentangle nicely.
theres a balance between mercy and severity and the truth is that right now they are loosing both sides by being too harsh on one end and
too soft on the other.
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"Most of the drama that happens on tribe does not rise to this level and that is why i'm an advocate of smaller measures such as moderator support and etc. Its the middle thats missing. "
Again, I bring up a very real and valid point and it escapes you. The girl saying "harassed" is somebody on tribe with a complaint. The Moderator then either has a talk with the offender, watches the offenders threads closer, or tell the complainer to leave and then they won't be harassed. The answer given will of course depend on the complainer.
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The answer given should depend upon the validity and severity of the claim to harassment, and the tribes running social protocols
according to the moderator.
Murphies law predicts it will depend on the claimants relationship to the moderator, THATS the PROBLEM.
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"a bar is required by law on several fronts to react to protect its patrons."
Nope. Not one bit. No more than a movie theater, restaurant, department store, or any other business.
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no more and no less. Even a citizen is required in certain situations to come forth and act, if nothing else than to call the police,
but there are tons of cases where establishments and even internet sites have been held accountable for the bad behavior of patrons or guests because they failed to provide reasonable or reasonably expectable assistance to somebody who was being abused or etc.
Look, your a muggle, and you know some stuff and you make a great argument , but you aren't a geeks geek and its silly for you to try to make a legal argument its clear you don't know what you are talking about.
The only questions here are the levels of severity of the crime and the levels of complicity of the staff.
If it were to turn out say for instance that a known troll who was prone to making violent threats did in fact stalk down s few tribers and off them, and then it was shown that this guy was known by tribe to be habitually abusive and they failed to remove him or act in any instance when somebody compalined about him, then tribe would in fact be liable and could be sued for damages including up to accessory to murder.
The truth about liability is severity. No, its hard to press liability to tribe for standard libel, or even your run of the mill personal defamation,
and tho it could probably be done few would bother as we all think of it as petty.
However, it is illegal and more importantly it is immoral and unethical and more importantly society has good rules against such things for good reasons and being an internet site is not an excuse to quit enforcing those rules as a society.
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You are the only one with Trollphobia.
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Not at all. I know people who actually have troll phobia and thus refuse to come to tribe at all. I find trolls to be interesting in a petri dish sort of way, they don't scare me but i do notice the harm that they do to the sheeple, whom i am trying to help evolve.
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Most people have problems with system stability and quality of service. There are less Trollphobics than there are trolls, even if you don't count the alts.
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Now you are reducing a serious problem down to blaming the victims. Again, pathetic reasoning and propagandist troll- type device.
please don't keep doing that, as i think you know better, and i have not said anything to engage you in troll sparring and this is a serious matter.
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"Lots of people have left because of it."
Vague, not specific. You're arguing with abstracts. DO you have exit poll numbers as to specific reason that people left?
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Yes, i have a large variety of hobbies which brings me into contact with a large number and variety of people. I have dozens of close aquiantainces who refuse to come to or discuss tribe based on the fact of its know troll friendly-ness.
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Are you using anecdotal or extrapolation? eg: 3 people left tribe because of trolls so I'm going to assume at least 3500 people have left the network because of it." At least provide a t formula statistic if you are going to make a claim like this.
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I'm not making any assumptions about the dozens of people who have related this to me after i tried to talk about tribe with them.
I can extrapolate from this that a very large percent of the population regards tribe as troll garbage.
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Let's face it, you want tribe admins to act as police and the moderators to act as their enforcement arm for a steril totalitarian system of pure structure, order and human utopia.
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No, thats your fears and your projections, coming unglued out of your head box.
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Can you cite the situations hen this has happened on tribe without any action taken? Please provide dates. If it was prior to Nov 10th 2008 then it has nothing to do with teh current tribe management.
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Then the current management should welcome the opportunity to learn from a critique of tribes past mis management.
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You mean when people do that?
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You may notice you failed to provide evidence and your use of recorded anecedote would invalidate actually your example.
Again, it comes down to looking at the evidence and seeing whats real and what isn't.
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Going after tribe would be comical.
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I agree, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen or that it won't predictably happen if tribe really decides to play the game that badly.
Its like a hot spring. Its al fun and games till the tards show up and start shooting off shotguns and the chinese call the police but theres no ordinances against the guns and then they start making new laws to cover petty crap that should have been self evident if people were civil.
The problem of legality is only one end of an entropic problem, its only one example of manifest entropy.
Theres also loss of users and from a systems standpoint, all of your input output it also garbage;
IE most tribes have trollish conversations with IQs below 90.
Geeky folks don't do tribe because its like trying to chat with cro magnons.
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What I found funny was your #3 in you Moderator re-edukation kourse was basically a lesson in trolling or as you put it, "leading conversation". You call trolling, I call it banter. Conversation. People yell troll for any conversation they aren't leading. You still suffer from trollphobia and you really should look into a 12 step program.
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no, i suffer from being an alien and from watching your civilization be insane and stupid.
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Just to be clear, that wasn't a troll, that was a satirical sarcasm, which is a very very mild flame.
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Just to be clear, you can stretch your definitions all you like, its a troll when i take objection to it and or when
its an irrelevant personal attack IE Abusive. I don't need abusive bullshit or your excuses or caveat created
proto jedi mind tricks.
Just to be clear, it is trolling when you verbally attack somebody. period.
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"We all know the difference between over the red line and not, were it not for defending your right to troll we wouldn't even be having this conversation. "
Expand your definitions. I'm trolling as much as you are.
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No, you are trolling much more than i am. I'm not really trolling even a little, i'm geeking. Its a subtle difference for some people but
the main point is intention.
A troll intends to insult, ego trip, make fun of, harm, etc. I'm trying to be helpful and providing an information service. Your inability to expand fast enough in no way reflects badly on the quality of interface you are getting from me.
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Unsu...
Re: What's really not allowed on Tribe? What do you do about borderline behavior?
Mon, January 12, 2009 - 6:40 AMRe: Humor and Satire.
I think that is one of the problems.
Define: Funny. Humor. Satire.
If we go to a comedy club, to see our favorite comedienne, we will probably have a good time. They might even make a joke about us in the audience, and we might find that hysterical, even being "honored" that our comedy favorite chose US to make fun of!
If someone we don't know makes a joke at our expense, ala "making fun of us", we may well be offended.
If someone we know really well, that we kid around with all the time, the same joke may well be funny, but we wouldn't be honored.
It's not just the delivery, or the joke, it's who says it and how it's taken.
If someone who I do not respect says it, and I view that person negatively, I'm not going to think it's funny. There are plenty of people that seek to stir up crap on Tribe and just about anything they say is not going to be funny. They are, in general, hurtful and malicious people. The humor is ALWAYS at someone's expense. Someone else. Someone else pays for that laugh, with being insulted or embarrassed or picked on.
That's not that funny, not when it hurts someone.
Picking on anyone anytime, anywhere. But no one EVER better turn it around back on them. Then they go through the roof. The foul language comes out. Or the people who say they never report to TOU immediately run to TOU. Ha! If you don't like it coming back on you, don't do it to other people.
Most people come here to have a good time. Right? But some people's "good time" consists of inflicting harm on others. Of purposely screwing with minds, playing alt games, pretending to be someone else, sneaking into moderated areas to annoy or harass. that is NOT fun for the victims. Yes, I said "victims".
Keep the alt crap in the tribes in which they KNOW you're an alt and know your real identity, so no one is confused. Troll and insult other insulting trolls in Troll v. Troll. And quit with the hate tribes. That is so cheesy. I can't believe you made a hate tribe. I'm so disappointed. -
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Re: What's really not allowed on Tribe? What do you do about borderline behavior?
Mon, January 12, 2009 - 8:35 AMI've seen a lot of "defamation" and never seen tribe act on it. I think maybe you need to remove that word from this description. -
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Unsu...
Re: What's really not allowed on Tribe? What do you do about borderline behavior?
Mon, January 12, 2009 - 10:15 AMIn the past, there was occasional action on some posts that were out of line. But it's pretty much hopeless in that category. There are just too many tribes to cover. Too many sleazy people who will spend their time spreading rumors, gossip, lies, and exaggerations. Most of whom don't know the full story and are only basing their posts on what someone else posted, somewhere else.
When the crap isn't taken down, it serves as a reference point for the next gullible sap that comes along. And it spreads, again. It will continue to spread, along the lines of the 2012 B.S. because it will be NEW to someone.
That is the internet's greatest weakness. Crap taken as fact. -
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Re: What's really not allowed on Tribe? What do you do about borderline behavior?
Mon, January 12, 2009 - 10:44 AMHa ha, you make excellent points!
But how does one stop this? Just let their name get slandered for possible newbies in the future?
I really feel for tribe. You are asked to play Mommy and Daddy far too much!!!!
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Unsu...
Re: What's really not allowed on Tribe? What do you do about borderline behavior?
Fri, January 16, 2009 - 8:51 PMProfessor Prom expounded:
"Where there is clear sign of abuse, and where the evidence is overwhelming, it is generally considered societie respnsibility to take action where appropriate. If a batch of pro wrestlers just happens to be sitting there while a little old lady gets mugged by a guy who beats her down with a chair, most people would consider them remiss in their duties as citizens for not acting to defend her or apprehend
the aggressor."
--I can't speak for society, but as for the law, in that example, the wrestlers would have no legal duty to step in.
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Re: What's really not allowed on Tribe? What do you do about borderline behavior?
Sat, January 17, 2009 - 5:53 PM-I can't speak for society, but as for the law, in that example, the wrestlers would have no legal duty to step in.
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they can however be charged with criminal negligence for failing to call the police.
AND... while they are not legally bound to step in, the smart way to run society is for people to step in where the situations are obvious.
I happen to actually do kung fu instead of being a cheap alt. Actually, Chi Sao mostly. And i have come to the rescue of others on several occasions, and it was always the right thing to do. You may be chickenshit, and thats your right, but if you witness a violent crime you are legally obliged to report it.
Tho i'd expect more from a chuck norris alt.
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Re: What's really not allowed on Tribe? What do you do about borderline behavior?
Sat, January 17, 2009 - 6:25 PM... and chances are that the guy who mugged the old lady could charge the wrestlers with assault witha deadly weapon due to their strength. Afterwords they would then be subject to civil suit.
There is no law that state any citizen of legally required to intervene when there is a crime in progress.
What you suggest is in direct violation of the laws of the united states.
You advocate Crime.
You suck.
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Re: What's really not allowed on Tribe? What do you do about borderline behavior?
Sat, January 17, 2009 - 6:42 PM... and chances are that the guy who mugged the old lady could charge the wrestlers with assault witha deadly weapon due to their strength.
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oh please, i can drop three muggles without hurting them seriously and i'm only 5' 8"
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Afterwords they would then be subject to civil suit.
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no, not really, not unless they injured the person.
of course you can civil sue over almost anything. you know, libel, slander, trolling...
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There is no law that state any citizen of legally required to intervene when there is a crime in progress.
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i never said there was. I said that there are laws that say a citizen must report what they know to be a crime
and that is true.
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What you suggest is in direct violation of the laws of the united states.
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Your straw man shit sandwhich has nothing to do with me, shitter.
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You advocate Crime.
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You are the criminal and you want to keep getting away with it.
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You suck
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sez shitter, the straw man troll.
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Re: What's really not allowed on Tribe? What do you do about borderline behavior?
Sat, January 17, 2009 - 8:51 PMYou are such a dunce.
Your example follows no logic. You cite pro wrestlers present during a crime. You claim they have a "socialie" obligation to intervene.
What do you define as intervention? You example lends itself towards a physical one, because you cited a pro wrestler. IF you were suggesting that a citizen has an obligation to notify police it could have been another old later, or somebody driving by who witnessed the crime.
Now, how would wrestlers intervene if not for physical?
Your logic, does not hold water.
--S
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Unsu...
Re: What's really not allowed on Tribe? What do you do about borderline behavior?
Mon, January 19, 2009 - 4:44 AMBack to the original post...
Tribe says:
"it is far better in the pursuit of justice that Tribe maintain the user records and that those records remain consistent, not fragmented across a series of unsubscribed alts. Such records will be maintained and provided under subpoena to appropriate authorities."
Absolutely.
In addition, I would like to suggest a "one name only" policy for the url of each person. So that it cannot be changed. For instance, your url is
people.tribe.net/tribe_d with a screen name of Tribe.
You could change your screen name to Cary Grant for movie week and to On Vacation when you go on vacation. But your url would remain the same. It gets very confusing when people change both their screen name and their url name. In fact, it's too confusing sometimes with people changing their screen name. And I wonder if one unique screen name per person, unchangeable, is possible?
That would help in the consistency that you talk about. No one has to try to figure out if Tribe is the same as tribe_d and the same as Cary Grant and the same as On Vacation. That's been one of the troll tricks, as well as just not even knowing who it is on your friend's list when names and images are constantly changing. I think the images can change to reflect seasons or moods, but the names should be unique. At least the url names.
As it becomes mighty hard to discuss what was felt about an alt that attacks or sneaks into a tribe pretending to be someone or something else, and then they change their name again so they are no longer in disguise or threatening in appearance or change their profile completely. Can YOU see all that happens at your end? Do YOU have a record of screen name changes and image changes and profile changes? So that you can SEE all the variations a person has used and over what time frame?
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As far as the other problems, like "A uniform rule of intolerance for ill-considered speech would depopulate Tribe." It would depopulate the planet with the wars that go on. I think people are doing a fair job at attempting to completely silence their opposition by killing them in the Middle East, but it still hasn't solved any problem.
What I'm just not understanding is why moderators do NOTHING about the behavior of various people or groups of people. There is one I had recently been visiting that once had fun or funny stuff in it, from time to time. It's been trolled into the ground. The moderator is there. And active. Just doesn't do anything about it.
And that is a flaw in the humans, they don't want to be seen as "the bad guy" or "the snitch" so they do nothing themselves and rarely speak up against it in their own tribes or to you. The members and the moderators get real quiet and often wander off to friendlier grounds. They hope that the bad stuff will magically go away without lifting a finger themselves.
That can become YOUR problem because YOU get blamed for their inaction. Sort of like blaming the police who had no idea a crime was occurring while large numbers of people stood by at the crime scene, did nothing, not even picking up the phone to alert someone.
Moderators will probably not ask for help, because they probably wouldn't follow the suggestions. Most of the tribes are specific groups. Consisting of people familiar with each other. And they simply will not do anything against someone they know and have favored or been friendly with. But they seem to have no problem smacking down someone who points out the bad behavior that occurs. -
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Re: What's really not allowed on Tribe? What do you do about borderline behavior?
Mon, January 19, 2009 - 2:43 PMLet me just add a few things:
I. All posters who cut and paste over one paragraph shall be condemned to burn in hell whether TOU likes it or not.
II. Any poster who attempts to defend their honor from brain-dead repetitious trolls will be considered equally culpable by TOU. It's just my way of making life on tribe.net just a little more miserable. Besides, Jesus wants you to turn the other cheek anyway.
III. All pretenders to Satan's thrown will rot in Hell for eternity whether TOU deletes their profiles or not.
IV. All boring trolls shall be trolled forever in eternity. -
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Unsu...
Re: What's really not allowed on Tribe? What do you do about borderline behavior?
Mon, January 19, 2009 - 3:04 PM" Satan's thrown "
Satan's thrown what?
A hissy fit?
It's THRONE.
" Besides, Jesus wants you to turn the other cheek anyway. "
That got all mixed up in the writing of the Bible. It had to do with flatulence and buttocks. Jesus wanted people to "turn away thy butt cheeks" when farting. -
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Re: What's really not allowed on Tribe? What do you do about borderline behavior?
Mon, January 19, 2009 - 5:20 PMOh do shut up djarum. At least for a thread or two.
I keep telling God he's welcome to your soul but he doesn't seem to be interested either. Maybe we'll agree on dooming you to stay on tribe.net for eternity surrounded by second-rate third-tier schooled litigation lawyers manning poorly executed satan-wannabe alts. Either that or we'll send you over to myspace and you'll have to post your real photo.
I need to think about it for awhile.
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Re: What's really not allowed on Tribe? What do you do about borderline behavior?
Tue, January 20, 2009 - 1:19 AMI think it's a reference to the old web strip "Mr T ate my balls" in which T frequently said "PREPARE TO BE THROWED"
or something...
--S
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Re: What's really not allowed on Tribe? What do you do about borderline behavior?
Wed, January 21, 2009 - 11:59 AM>In every single case we have looked into we have found plenty of evidence of bad behavior on both sides.
That would imply that you haven't been looking too heavily into the people who have given up on tribe because no one in management here was willing to simply deal with trolling issues. Seriously, if you believe your statement to be true, you seem to be saying that people who are abused and harassed here DESERVE that abuse and harassment...in EVERY case. Do you really think that's true. I hope not. And I sure a lawyer takes a look at your statement above soon...and that tribe modifies statements like the one above accordingly.
Of course, the irony hear is that whomever is using the "Tribe" account with the little "t" in the circle next to it here is anonymous, eh? Whatever. My hope is that some more professionalism is brought to these sorts of strange ideas that "it's your fault too!" if someone is harassed here by a psychotic or a sociopath...something the above statement seems to be saying obliquely. -
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Re: What's really not allowed on Tribe? What do you do about borderline behavior?
Wed, January 21, 2009 - 12:48 PMThat would imply that you haven't been looking too heavily into the people who have given up on tribe because no one in management here was willing to simply deal with trolling issues. Seriously, if you believe your statement to be true, you seem to be saying that people who are abused and harassed here DESERVE that abuse and harassment...in EVERY case. Do you really think that's true. I hope not. And I sure a lawyer takes a look at your statement above soon...and that tribe modifies statements like the one above accordingly.
Of course, the irony hear is that whomever is using the "Tribe" account with the little "t" in the circle next to it here is anonymous, eh? Whatever. My hope is that some more professionalism is brought to these sorts of strange ideas that "it's your fault too!" if someone is harassed here by a psychotic or a sociopath...something the above statement seems to be saying obliquely.
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Right, in its rush to abdicate responsibility due to its real world energy and time constraints, tribe has unfortunately adopted a blame the victim
modus operandi. This works great to further alienate any remaining non trolls and even better to ensure that tribe would lose any kind of serious suit, but it doesn't do much for tribe other than that.
The idea that all behavior should be okay and that there are no lines is crazy and uncivil, and i certainly do not deserve nor should i have to put up with tribe tolls just because i want to discuss the issues on tribe.
The fact that tribe fails to moderate the tribe tribes is a serious sign of indiference and a serious symptom of a total lack of self respect.
For tribe to wish to be open to allow trolls to have their own tribes is one thing. To allow and maintain and defend TROLLING in tribes own
tribes- and to thus model such an insane and backwards form of moderation- is not professional, is not self respecting, is driving the conversation stupid, and makes most people think tribe is a joke- because it can't even be bothered to take it own tribes seriously enough
to moderate them.
on the other hand, tribe staff are computer geeks, not communications experts, psychologists, or sociologists... (i assume?)
The real problem is ignorance. Tribe staff don't know how to do it better.
That and snarky cynicism- tribe staff doesn't know how to look at or relate to its gift users and instead relates with and builds
its management style WITH patently abusive people like shatter.
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