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The prometheuspan plan for solving the current troll/alpha dog dominion violence headtrip that is the cancer that keeps civilization stupid.
1. These principles must be utterly pragmatic to employ as rules in a forum, and yet be long term social engineering principles which look at the long term
and gently shape it.
2. These principles must apply in each case the core principle of the balance between severity and mercy. Without enough of both yin or yang,
the universe or any system which is a microfractal impression of the core scalar fractal holomorph will fall out of balance.
A. This includes al kinds of systems, for instance weather which needs a day and night cycle, or social systems which require a certain amount of rules
to enforce civility yet not enough rules to take away anybodies liberties. A large amount of rhetoric of the far right is based on a panic driven
duality schema where they say if things go off in the direction of more rules or to many rules civilization will crumble. the interesting thing is that the
balance point they are pointing at is real. But the current balance is skewed so far off balance to the right that the roof has now become a leg which lands over in
insane retardsville.
3. The core problem of ignorance as it plays out in pack psychology; people fighting over things they know nothing about.
B. Thus the core cure of education. Not unsubbing, public humiliation, or other forms of negative re-enforcement. You must employ pavlovs
core gift to humanity in order to fix this problem.
C. that core gift is this; No amount of merely negative re-enforcement ever makes any situation better, it just makes the criminals better or slyer
or more twisted. You can't beat a dog into submission for long, eventually if you don't also love it its going to decide to finish the nightmare alpha
monster as best as it can.
D. Thus the true core of severity is its balance counterpoint in this and most instances; the system is only as good as the judgements made in bringing
things up... you could call it the parental love side of the force.
On the other hand on te severity or discipline side of the force you have what we might have to call parental discipline. The real truth about applying parental
discipline with a child or an adult human whos behaving as one is that the truth is you can only claim moral authority with a person by demonstrating
to them that you are doing your best to treat them and their situation fairly.
E. Thus 'Discipline" in any successful adventure, even with a child is a love driven account system with very occasional negative energy withdrawals of large
sums. IE, the parent gives to the child positive energy, and more positive energy; the child behaves badly, the adult gives a very short burst of negative
energy which drains the emotional bonding account between parent and child. A parent must see that account in the childs mind and make sense of it
and love a child in a manner that brings them up and opens doors for them to grow into places instead of boxing them in to keep them safe from themselves.
F.The discipline side of a public forum is then the civility created by a successful moderation team who firstly acts to educate and empower
its user base, as well as lead some discussion forums, but who then incidentally deals with the same crowd or mob to settle or resolve disputes
as opportunities for educational demonstrative process.
4. Every person carries with them a shadow or subconscious elements of self which are for most people entirely subliminal.
In public forums common parlance, we can call that aspect of self the inner troll. Everyone has an inner troll, and
the curious thing about having an inner troll is its another part of you you have to take care of.
A. Theres nothing wrong with sparring where both participants have agreed thats what they want to do.
B. It is however assault to soft spar somebody who has not agreed to the new social conditions of soft sparring.
C. Similarly, verbal or written communication can be used for psychological warfare. And thats an entire trip stretch.
Its a place a lot of people get trapped inside of and they never learn to put down their pitchforks.
D. Thanks to those people human civilization is incidentally still a big phat verbal abuse pitchfork society.
Which is barbaric, primitive, stupid, self defeating, self dating, and ultimately which brings evolution to a grinding halt
around the situation of breeding people stupid so that they will vote republican.
And then make good propaganda war foot soldiers in their orwellian society... all the while pretending that any attempt to improve things is some
form of socialist fascism.
E. Given how pack psychology, the dominant social and political and religious paradigms, and egotism as well as what happens given that
reality is based on fractal scalar mirroring, thus;
F. the relationship any person has with society as a whole is some vague mirror of the relationship they have with themselves and vice versa;
G. the relationship any person has with themselves is the relationship most people project at others socially.
H. A person who does this is trapped in the matrix, and curiously you can demonstrate their trappedness very easily using formal conversational logic if
you know what you are doing.
5. Conversational logic is the true golden science which fixes this if we pay attention. The science has ruled on this, but society hasn't caught up.
a. Ad hominems. An ad hominem is a personal attack. In truth there are different version of what an ad hominem is depending on how formal the conversation is.
In some debate situations, an ad hominem is defined as ANY USE OF ANY REFERENCE AT ALL TO THE COMMUNICATEE IN THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE>...
You are allowed to greet and you are allowed to say goodbye, but in the strictest sense, the moment a person starts talking about the other person rather
than the persons stated ideas they have drifted from focus on what is relevant.
In more common parlance, or in legal language, for instance, an ad hominem is committed any time a person specifically attacks another person.
In either case, an ad hominem is wrong because it makes the talker the subject and thus changes the subject.
b. straw man arguments. When somebody misrepresents what you said and distorts it, or creates an entirely new argument and claims that its yours,
and then knocks that down instead of your argument, thats a straw man argument.
C. Double bind. The best example i am in often is the jerk who insults me ten times for being an idiot according to them and then holds it against me
later for "bragging" that my IQ is 180. Well, my IQ is 180, and they are the ones who brought up the subject of my intelligence.
Or the people whos argument is that you spammed them. Right so your argument is
"i can't handle this its too big and i don't have enough attention span to look
at it so you are bad for even bringing it up" kinds of trippers. Your then damned if you do bother to present the information they obviously don't have
and damned if you don't by such logic.
d. There are these things in language called propositiions, syllogisms, and arguments. Learn what they are and how they stack into each other.
e. Then there is the definition, in conversational logic, of validity, cogency, and TRUTH VALUE.
f. While the current trend is of course anarchy and anarchism with trolls laying claim to waste any ideas to do anything smarter, the first site on the net
which actually employs formal logic to drive both moderation and administration (leading conversations and tossing TROLLS off by confiscating their accounts.)
will evolve rapidly into a viral phenomenon. This will make such a site extremely popular once it takes off, and will then spawn a new set of
competition variables as other places try to implement and create similar social situations.
g. The main reason for this is that formal logic organizes the grand conversation into something auto self searched. With one good moderator leading a conversation
with their head also in a textbook, that moderator can lead a conversation which is incredibly smart, informative, interesting, and orders of magnitude better
than what wikipedia can now do because it too is based still on pack psychology.
h. The second reason for this is that formal logic directly weeds out social parasites so effectively and so quickly that the social energies now being employed to
keep the population ignorant would be blown off and the natural evolutionary sequence which has been being held back by an enormous artificial earth dam
can burst through all that and claim everything waiting for us at the next intellectual evolutionary level.
i. Conversational logic is thus the "Severity" side of our model. It turns you into a coldly rational and calculating individual with no biases
and a clear and lucid understanding of the difference between what you really do know and what you probably don't.
6. Non Violent communication or NVC is a relationship and communications meta model which converts positive energy relating into a very simple ritualized form
of conversation.
7. Maslow and Pavlov fill out the rest of the side of mercy.
8. My suggestion to tribe then is this;
1. Run a user based back ground check on the hard core users who are interested in it,
and then pick 3 user liasons per each paid staff member.
2. These volunteers will act as secretaries and as a sort of interface with tribers.
3. The new moderators will not have unsub powers for tribe as a whole but should have limited global moderation powers
to do things like move posts. (deletion is always problematic as then its missing. Organizing it is better. Similarly, don't unsub an account,
get into it as an admin and change the password. Think how much easier that would now make the task of giving me back my old account.
(prometheuspan@hotmail.com. I was unsubbed for reporting a stalker.I wasn't asking for her removal i was asking for a moderator to talk some sense
into her.And then later warning people in tribes about her once i saw her in action abusing others. She got like a dozen people unsubbed before the staff
unsubbed her apparently realizing who was the real culprit.)
4. The new moderators will HOST tribe. that means that they will chat with tribers in a few limited tribes, lead conversations in those tribes,
and occasionally come into situations as a third element in a dispute larger than a single tribe.
5. Preferably if its done right using 100 instances of that(dealing with inter/multi tribe disputes.)
to teach the mob how not to do it and then not having to deal with it much after that.
6. Have your moderation team open not just the five or ten tribe tribes that now exist but a whole new batch of main tribe tribes
which tribe can now feature, where the moderators lead conversations smart and ultra civil as demonstrations of how it can be done that way.
The list of topics is as easy as obamas platform planks plus 50 sciences. With a tribe on astronomy thats got good moderation, you should have
a virtual open ended textbook on astronomy that beats google searches for depth, quality and ease of access as well as information density.
IE; show tribers how smart management of a tribe can turn a tribe into something truly useful, educational, ultra civil, and etc.
7. Don't require all tribes to be like that.
8. Each tribe has its own sort of charter for social protocols and thats as it should be. Global moderators should take this into account.
A troll who starts a troll tribe to play innocently with their inner and other peoples trolls can be left alone to bicker and ad hominem and straw man
away to his hearts content; thats that tribes version of social order and it has its own logic and rules which should be respected.
9. By one definition then a TROLL is somebody who tries to change the social order always back to pack psychology and bully tactics; a verbal bully.
a. all bullies by definition are actually weak minded vampires.
b. so if you help their minds get stronger, they can fix, or...
c. If you help them put together a psychology kit thats self sufficient, they can quit being vampires.
d. The real key to problem solving process with TROLLS is to see them as victims of bad ideas.
good moderation is not about punishing somebody, its about educating them and empowering them to have a better tactic.
Its not about caging people, but about liberating them.
10. The troll complaint against rules is that such interfere with personal liberty. What is never discussed and never pointed out is that a
sociey run by pack psychology and bullies isn't a liberated society either. A bullies idea is that its his personal liberty to boss people around,
harass them, stalk them, belittle, slander, attack, etc. That idea is a wrong idea, ethically, socially, and by now, perhaps most important evolutionarilly.
The real truth abut cages and liberty in social systems is that we now exist in a civilization of wage slavery as a cage and troll propaganda warfare for
our intellectual public discourse. Its pathetic.Its a cage, and the way out of it is to realize that good rules don't hinder personal liberty, they are
the ballwarks and the foundations upon which a society gains enough energy for us to have personal liberties.You can't be liberated or free in a society which sees
you as a labor commodity or which treats you like meat. You can't be liberated or free in a tribe where TROLLZ shoot down all of the better thinking by attacking the
geeks so that they can be the alphas.
Good social rules are the wings a social system uses to fly. Without them, any social system is going to be grounded in the banal, and confined to the lowest common
denominators in terms of IQ and attention span.
So the real truth is that the trolls are the ones selling mental cages and i am the one whos offering true liberty.
11. To implement a successful moderation system requires close attention to the above principle.
Moderation is not about controlling people, its about giving them the wings to let them fly. The trolls are projecting their trip about their own mental cages,
which has nothing to do with reality as it is. THEIR rules are the mental cage.
True liberty is when a group of 30 people fall into phase and become a super genius think tank off exploring some interesting aspect of reality.
True liberty is when your ten hobby groups totally rock and your life is awesome because you have such great support for your hobby group.
12. So, you have your moderation team running these tribes aimed for peak performance in demonstration of what a tribe can do; the very top
of what can be done with a tribe. And those demonstrations then help people to learn and to see what to do and how to work making their own tribes better.
And if you are smart, eventually what happens is the moderation styles somewhat catch on, and then tribe becomes a place with lots of "troll" hang outs
but without an over-all TROLL dominance of the site.
13. This is of course just a bullet point brief, I can detail it but i think it might be better to work democratically towards detailing better than i would alone.
The upshod on two sides is that you need a moderation team. You can do that with or without me personally, but it seems like a waste to waste such a well
educated and lucid volunteer. Aside from myself, the persons i know of on tribe i might nominate as others include lokifreign, wild apache, djarum, and, until recently,
shatter, tho i may have been too kind in my estimation of him. Dimi comes to mind, patasapien, tho i doubt either of them would be interested.
The people you want are the ones who previously walked the line. The people who managed to live as both sides of their nature in a prodictive over all manner.
People who can hang with the trolls or with the TROLLs. And yet who can come to a conversation and be present and lucid and adult while still making their case
and making an argument.
The problem is if you get somebody whos like djarum used to be; idealist and shell shocked and demanding that the world be sterile to suit them.
Thats too far the other direction.
I'll continue to write this little missive and keep you updated for versions, since its becoming so relevant.
:)
In the meantime, again, I ask, how can tribe solve these problems sanely rather than trying to absolve itself of culpability
and sweep things always under the carpet?
I am offering solutions not merely accusations, i am offering evolution not as shatter accuses "spamming."
So, please answer this thread with your own ideas about how to make tribe better, how to do moderation without doing fascism,
and etc.
thanks in advance,
peace
pan
1. These principles must be utterly pragmatic to employ as rules in a forum, and yet be long term social engineering principles which look at the long term
and gently shape it.
2. These principles must apply in each case the core principle of the balance between severity and mercy. Without enough of both yin or yang,
the universe or any system which is a microfractal impression of the core scalar fractal holomorph will fall out of balance.
A. This includes al kinds of systems, for instance weather which needs a day and night cycle, or social systems which require a certain amount of rules
to enforce civility yet not enough rules to take away anybodies liberties. A large amount of rhetoric of the far right is based on a panic driven
duality schema where they say if things go off in the direction of more rules or to many rules civilization will crumble. the interesting thing is that the
balance point they are pointing at is real. But the current balance is skewed so far off balance to the right that the roof has now become a leg which lands over in
insane retardsville.
3. The core problem of ignorance as it plays out in pack psychology; people fighting over things they know nothing about.
B. Thus the core cure of education. Not unsubbing, public humiliation, or other forms of negative re-enforcement. You must employ pavlovs
core gift to humanity in order to fix this problem.
C. that core gift is this; No amount of merely negative re-enforcement ever makes any situation better, it just makes the criminals better or slyer
or more twisted. You can't beat a dog into submission for long, eventually if you don't also love it its going to decide to finish the nightmare alpha
monster as best as it can.
D. Thus the true core of severity is its balance counterpoint in this and most instances; the system is only as good as the judgements made in bringing
things up... you could call it the parental love side of the force.
On the other hand on te severity or discipline side of the force you have what we might have to call parental discipline. The real truth about applying parental
discipline with a child or an adult human whos behaving as one is that the truth is you can only claim moral authority with a person by demonstrating
to them that you are doing your best to treat them and their situation fairly.
E. Thus 'Discipline" in any successful adventure, even with a child is a love driven account system with very occasional negative energy withdrawals of large
sums. IE, the parent gives to the child positive energy, and more positive energy; the child behaves badly, the adult gives a very short burst of negative
energy which drains the emotional bonding account between parent and child. A parent must see that account in the childs mind and make sense of it
and love a child in a manner that brings them up and opens doors for them to grow into places instead of boxing them in to keep them safe from themselves.
F.The discipline side of a public forum is then the civility created by a successful moderation team who firstly acts to educate and empower
its user base, as well as lead some discussion forums, but who then incidentally deals with the same crowd or mob to settle or resolve disputes
as opportunities for educational demonstrative process.
4. Every person carries with them a shadow or subconscious elements of self which are for most people entirely subliminal.
In public forums common parlance, we can call that aspect of self the inner troll. Everyone has an inner troll, and
the curious thing about having an inner troll is its another part of you you have to take care of.
A. Theres nothing wrong with sparring where both participants have agreed thats what they want to do.
B. It is however assault to soft spar somebody who has not agreed to the new social conditions of soft sparring.
C. Similarly, verbal or written communication can be used for psychological warfare. And thats an entire trip stretch.
Its a place a lot of people get trapped inside of and they never learn to put down their pitchforks.
D. Thanks to those people human civilization is incidentally still a big phat verbal abuse pitchfork society.
Which is barbaric, primitive, stupid, self defeating, self dating, and ultimately which brings evolution to a grinding halt
around the situation of breeding people stupid so that they will vote republican.
And then make good propaganda war foot soldiers in their orwellian society... all the while pretending that any attempt to improve things is some
form of socialist fascism.
E. Given how pack psychology, the dominant social and political and religious paradigms, and egotism as well as what happens given that
reality is based on fractal scalar mirroring, thus;
F. the relationship any person has with society as a whole is some vague mirror of the relationship they have with themselves and vice versa;
G. the relationship any person has with themselves is the relationship most people project at others socially.
H. A person who does this is trapped in the matrix, and curiously you can demonstrate their trappedness very easily using formal conversational logic if
you know what you are doing.
5. Conversational logic is the true golden science which fixes this if we pay attention. The science has ruled on this, but society hasn't caught up.
a. Ad hominems. An ad hominem is a personal attack. In truth there are different version of what an ad hominem is depending on how formal the conversation is.
In some debate situations, an ad hominem is defined as ANY USE OF ANY REFERENCE AT ALL TO THE COMMUNICATEE IN THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE>...
You are allowed to greet and you are allowed to say goodbye, but in the strictest sense, the moment a person starts talking about the other person rather
than the persons stated ideas they have drifted from focus on what is relevant.
In more common parlance, or in legal language, for instance, an ad hominem is committed any time a person specifically attacks another person.
In either case, an ad hominem is wrong because it makes the talker the subject and thus changes the subject.
b. straw man arguments. When somebody misrepresents what you said and distorts it, or creates an entirely new argument and claims that its yours,
and then knocks that down instead of your argument, thats a straw man argument.
C. Double bind. The best example i am in often is the jerk who insults me ten times for being an idiot according to them and then holds it against me
later for "bragging" that my IQ is 180. Well, my IQ is 180, and they are the ones who brought up the subject of my intelligence.
Or the people whos argument is that you spammed them. Right so your argument is
"i can't handle this its too big and i don't have enough attention span to look
at it so you are bad for even bringing it up" kinds of trippers. Your then damned if you do bother to present the information they obviously don't have
and damned if you don't by such logic.
d. There are these things in language called propositiions, syllogisms, and arguments. Learn what they are and how they stack into each other.
e. Then there is the definition, in conversational logic, of validity, cogency, and TRUTH VALUE.
f. While the current trend is of course anarchy and anarchism with trolls laying claim to waste any ideas to do anything smarter, the first site on the net
which actually employs formal logic to drive both moderation and administration (leading conversations and tossing TROLLS off by confiscating their accounts.)
will evolve rapidly into a viral phenomenon. This will make such a site extremely popular once it takes off, and will then spawn a new set of
competition variables as other places try to implement and create similar social situations.
g. The main reason for this is that formal logic organizes the grand conversation into something auto self searched. With one good moderator leading a conversation
with their head also in a textbook, that moderator can lead a conversation which is incredibly smart, informative, interesting, and orders of magnitude better
than what wikipedia can now do because it too is based still on pack psychology.
h. The second reason for this is that formal logic directly weeds out social parasites so effectively and so quickly that the social energies now being employed to
keep the population ignorant would be blown off and the natural evolutionary sequence which has been being held back by an enormous artificial earth dam
can burst through all that and claim everything waiting for us at the next intellectual evolutionary level.
i. Conversational logic is thus the "Severity" side of our model. It turns you into a coldly rational and calculating individual with no biases
and a clear and lucid understanding of the difference between what you really do know and what you probably don't.
6. Non Violent communication or NVC is a relationship and communications meta model which converts positive energy relating into a very simple ritualized form
of conversation.
7. Maslow and Pavlov fill out the rest of the side of mercy.
8. My suggestion to tribe then is this;
1. Run a user based back ground check on the hard core users who are interested in it,
and then pick 3 user liasons per each paid staff member.
2. These volunteers will act as secretaries and as a sort of interface with tribers.
3. The new moderators will not have unsub powers for tribe as a whole but should have limited global moderation powers
to do things like move posts. (deletion is always problematic as then its missing. Organizing it is better. Similarly, don't unsub an account,
get into it as an admin and change the password. Think how much easier that would now make the task of giving me back my old account.
(prometheuspan@hotmail.com. I was unsubbed for reporting a stalker.I wasn't asking for her removal i was asking for a moderator to talk some sense
into her.And then later warning people in tribes about her once i saw her in action abusing others. She got like a dozen people unsubbed before the staff
unsubbed her apparently realizing who was the real culprit.)
4. The new moderators will HOST tribe. that means that they will chat with tribers in a few limited tribes, lead conversations in those tribes,
and occasionally come into situations as a third element in a dispute larger than a single tribe.
5. Preferably if its done right using 100 instances of that(dealing with inter/multi tribe disputes.)
to teach the mob how not to do it and then not having to deal with it much after that.
6. Have your moderation team open not just the five or ten tribe tribes that now exist but a whole new batch of main tribe tribes
which tribe can now feature, where the moderators lead conversations smart and ultra civil as demonstrations of how it can be done that way.
The list of topics is as easy as obamas platform planks plus 50 sciences. With a tribe on astronomy thats got good moderation, you should have
a virtual open ended textbook on astronomy that beats google searches for depth, quality and ease of access as well as information density.
IE; show tribers how smart management of a tribe can turn a tribe into something truly useful, educational, ultra civil, and etc.
7. Don't require all tribes to be like that.
8. Each tribe has its own sort of charter for social protocols and thats as it should be. Global moderators should take this into account.
A troll who starts a troll tribe to play innocently with their inner and other peoples trolls can be left alone to bicker and ad hominem and straw man
away to his hearts content; thats that tribes version of social order and it has its own logic and rules which should be respected.
9. By one definition then a TROLL is somebody who tries to change the social order always back to pack psychology and bully tactics; a verbal bully.
a. all bullies by definition are actually weak minded vampires.
b. so if you help their minds get stronger, they can fix, or...
c. If you help them put together a psychology kit thats self sufficient, they can quit being vampires.
d. The real key to problem solving process with TROLLS is to see them as victims of bad ideas.
good moderation is not about punishing somebody, its about educating them and empowering them to have a better tactic.
Its not about caging people, but about liberating them.
10. The troll complaint against rules is that such interfere with personal liberty. What is never discussed and never pointed out is that a
sociey run by pack psychology and bullies isn't a liberated society either. A bullies idea is that its his personal liberty to boss people around,
harass them, stalk them, belittle, slander, attack, etc. That idea is a wrong idea, ethically, socially, and by now, perhaps most important evolutionarilly.
The real truth abut cages and liberty in social systems is that we now exist in a civilization of wage slavery as a cage and troll propaganda warfare for
our intellectual public discourse. Its pathetic.Its a cage, and the way out of it is to realize that good rules don't hinder personal liberty, they are
the ballwarks and the foundations upon which a society gains enough energy for us to have personal liberties.You can't be liberated or free in a society which sees
you as a labor commodity or which treats you like meat. You can't be liberated or free in a tribe where TROLLZ shoot down all of the better thinking by attacking the
geeks so that they can be the alphas.
Good social rules are the wings a social system uses to fly. Without them, any social system is going to be grounded in the banal, and confined to the lowest common
denominators in terms of IQ and attention span.
So the real truth is that the trolls are the ones selling mental cages and i am the one whos offering true liberty.
11. To implement a successful moderation system requires close attention to the above principle.
Moderation is not about controlling people, its about giving them the wings to let them fly. The trolls are projecting their trip about their own mental cages,
which has nothing to do with reality as it is. THEIR rules are the mental cage.
True liberty is when a group of 30 people fall into phase and become a super genius think tank off exploring some interesting aspect of reality.
True liberty is when your ten hobby groups totally rock and your life is awesome because you have such great support for your hobby group.
12. So, you have your moderation team running these tribes aimed for peak performance in demonstration of what a tribe can do; the very top
of what can be done with a tribe. And those demonstrations then help people to learn and to see what to do and how to work making their own tribes better.
And if you are smart, eventually what happens is the moderation styles somewhat catch on, and then tribe becomes a place with lots of "troll" hang outs
but without an over-all TROLL dominance of the site.
13. This is of course just a bullet point brief, I can detail it but i think it might be better to work democratically towards detailing better than i would alone.
The upshod on two sides is that you need a moderation team. You can do that with or without me personally, but it seems like a waste to waste such a well
educated and lucid volunteer. Aside from myself, the persons i know of on tribe i might nominate as others include lokifreign, wild apache, djarum, and, until recently,
shatter, tho i may have been too kind in my estimation of him. Dimi comes to mind, patasapien, tho i doubt either of them would be interested.
The people you want are the ones who previously walked the line. The people who managed to live as both sides of their nature in a prodictive over all manner.
People who can hang with the trolls or with the TROLLs. And yet who can come to a conversation and be present and lucid and adult while still making their case
and making an argument.
The problem is if you get somebody whos like djarum used to be; idealist and shell shocked and demanding that the world be sterile to suit them.
Thats too far the other direction.
I'll continue to write this little missive and keep you updated for versions, since its becoming so relevant.
:)
In the meantime, again, I ask, how can tribe solve these problems sanely rather than trying to absolve itself of culpability
and sweep things always under the carpet?
I am offering solutions not merely accusations, i am offering evolution not as shatter accuses "spamming."
So, please answer this thread with your own ideas about how to make tribe better, how to do moderation without doing fascism,
and etc.
thanks in advance,
peace
pan
posted by:
|
California
|
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-
Re: Moderation Team Suggestions
Thu, January 15, 2009 - 10:18 AM
-
Re: Moderation Team Suggestions
Thu, January 15, 2009 - 11:19 AMThe problem with this tack is, so far as I could get to (about the first third), you seem to want people to pass psychology courses before either being moderators, or participating in the discussion. That's highly unrealistic, in my opinion. Most people just want to pop on, say their piece and move on. Requirements like the above just drive them away. You will have an audience of one. The net appeals to that which is most prurient in us, the ability to put our opinion out there, even if its something ill-considered. It is whim-gratification, the market caters to that whim-gratification at every turn. While this inherently drags the dialog down, it also allows a sampling of the level of intellect being employed, on average, by users.
I like tribe best because despite the amount of arguments, they are of better quality than say on MySpace where conversations are almost never beyond the level of "Yo whazzzzzzuppp! Thanks for the add!"
I would say the need to control the dialog is an urge for an order than is less relevant than the study of the events that take place. Either from afar or from within the maelstrom, I think you can learn more from the mess than if you simply tried to teach the messy and force upon them conformity of thought, which most will inherently reject when coming from a whim-satistfaction-oriented culture that does not place value on anything remotely moral or ethical, unless that same ethos also corresponds to something marketable.
In short, the culture is the problem,not the expression of it.
-
-
Re: Moderation Team Suggestions
Thu, January 15, 2009 - 12:24 PMThe problem with this tack is, so far as I could get to (about the first third), you seem to want people to pass psychology courses before either being moderators, or participating in the discussion.
------------
i would call that a valid observation, but a hyperbole.
Whats needed is a systemic crash course in good solid psychology and ethics. Yes.
I want everybody to be a part of the discussion on the one hand; but ignorance talking doesn't truck with
me.
I am doing my best to solve the problem of ignorance by actually providing the cure information.
This should make me everybodies hero and there should be nothing to fight about.
instead people are clinging to things as they are and their projected fears of a dystopia that isn't the place
i'm talking about.
-------------
That's highly unrealistic, in my opinion.
------------
good thing your version of your observation is hyperbole. What i want to do is start the education process. It takes a critical mass of people to realize ..."wait a second...this is actually the solution, we don't need to be defensive any more...".
-------------
Most people just want to pop on, say their piece and move on. Requirements like the above just drive them away. You will have an audience of one.
------------
While somewhat true of the vast majority of people, there are plenty of people who are deeper than that to fill other roles. You assumptions
are based on an environment that creates that as its current manifested conditions. In fact, i know how to manage audiences fairly well once i get them sold. selling them is the hard thing. you almost seemed sold on geothermal power, but, now, here we are, one escalation
step away from playing a game of flame pong.
-------------
The net appeals to that which is most prurient in us, the ability to put our opinion out there, even if its something ill-considered. It is whim-gratification, the market caters to that whim-gratification at every turn. While this inherently drags the dialog down, it also allows a sampling of the level of intellect being employed, on average, by users.
-------------
The same principles applied more smartly could allow a new kind of super intelligence to emerge in which clusters of tribes solve real world problems and thus the whole system operates as an organic think tank with an IQ in the thousands.
You are arguing ignorantly from ignorance for ignorance, and i am arguing for the next stage in human social intellectual communication;
and evolution, right here, right now, to take the most and make the most out of this opportunity..."seize the day!"
My solution does not prohibit people from having hose same interactions on tribes which want such. Their behavior and the current situation is the glue that holds the matrix together in this local sphere.
So their non solution does prohibit a million possible good tribes from existing.
see the difference? I don't steal the very possibility of their social scene from them by bullying them out of it,
i just make it so that if they want that kind of interaction that they know where to go.
then i open the doors up for new kinds of interaction, and evolution can be unleashed.
------------------
I like tribe best because despite the amount of arguments, they are of better quality than say on MySpace where conversations are almost never beyond the level of "Yo whazzzzzzuppp! Thanks for the add!"
-----------
You have a fine point there.
-------------
I would say the need to control the dialog is an urge for an order than is less relevant than the study of the events that take place.
-------------
again i would repeat that the idea that i am pro control is a straw man argument. What i am is pro order, not all order has to be controlling,
and in fact, say for instance with music, you really need a good drum beat to have a nice jam. Without some rules the instruments would be in cacaphony. the subtle rules of melody and harmony also apply. Music is not just any instruments playing any notes, it is manifested mathematical order.
-------------
Either from afar or from within the maelstrom, I think you can learn more from the mess than if you simply tried to teach the messy and force upon them conformity of thought,
------------
learning some good empowering things about psychology and communications won't kill you or anybody malv, you people act like this is a shot with an 5 gallon drum and a needle the size of a large kitchen utensil. Quit being such a pussy over this and get over it.
This is not forcing conformity of thought on anybody, its asking people to have a modicum of education in order to participate in the public dialogue, which is no different than how it is now except we raise the bar a notch.
-------------
which most will inherently reject when coming from a whim-satistfaction-oriented culture that does not place value on anything remotely moral or ethical, unless that same ethos also corresponds to something marketable.
-------------
theres an underlying principle i keep trying to point out here that answers this, which is that a trollish environment is proportionally as stupid as it is trollish, but a well moderated environment is as smart as it is organized. The effect is that any group of a hundred persons who wanted to could in theory become a world class think tank on some issue if they wanted to do so.
That won't happen when a third of the people present only know how to communicate via enema.
------------------
In short, the culture is the problem,not the expression of it.
---------
I agree, so we can either stick with the same culture, or create a new one, right here, right now.
we have the choice, the opportunity is ours.
tribe can be a footnote in history or the place where humanity wakes up.
which would you prefer? -
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Re: Moderation Team Suggestions
Thu, January 15, 2009 - 2:15 PMIf your ideas are so wondrous why haven't you gone off and created your own social network?
Free Association got annoyed with tribe and gave it a shot.
Now there's Ning and you don't even have to build the backend.
--S
-
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Re: Moderation Team Suggestions
Thu, January 15, 2009 - 10:15 PMHe did, no one showed up. -
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Re: Moderation Team Suggestions
Fri, January 16, 2009 - 12:05 AM"He did, no one showed up. "
AN ARMY OF ONE!
Well, what do you expect? When you create a system that will please everyone and go to great lengths to make it as such, the only person who will be happy is the jackass that wrote it.
--S
-
-
-
Re: Moderation Team Suggestions
Thu, January 15, 2009 - 10:28 PM"Whats needed is a systemic crash course in good solid psychology and ethics. Yes."
That's not why people come to social networks. They come to chat. You're asking people to save the world iwth you, which is best confined to a particular tribe or other social network where this is the goal.
"I want everybody to be a part of the discussion on the one hand; but ignorance talking doesn't truck with
me."
Well, considering the state of education in this country, you have a pipe dream on your hands.
"I am doing my best to solve the problem of ignorance by actually providing the cure information."
You cannot cure stupid. Certainly not over a social network. There's too much counter programming in place, for one, for two the mentality is not even desirous of illumination.
"This should make me everybodies hero and there should be nothing to fight about.instead people are clinging to things as they are and their projected fears of a dystopia that isn't the place i'm talking about."
No, they are objecting to being preached at in a way they aren't even here to listen to. In short, no one cares. Or not enough in any case. No amount of cutting and pasting can make the horse drink the water, no matter how many times you lead them there.
----------
That's highly unrealistic, in my opinion.
------------
"good thing your version of your observation is hyperbole. What i want to do is start the education process. It takes a critical mass of people to realize ..."wait a second...this is actually the solution, we don't need to be defensive any more..."."
Its nor defensiveness, its laziness. No one is here to save the world, just talk with each other.
"While somewhat true of the vast majority of people, there are plenty of people who are deeper than that to fill other roles. You assumptions
are based on an environment that creates that as its current manifested conditions. In fact, i know how to manage audiences fairly well once i get them sold. selling them is the hard thing. you almost seemed sold on geothermal power, but, now, here we are, one escalation
step away from playing a game of flame pong."
I can't point out that your energy is better spent elsewhere without being called flaming? Your messiah complex is getting in your way again, hoss. People can have a multitude of feelings and perspectives simultaneously. I can find good ideas sensible like anyone else, but still find the speaker errant in other ways. For the record its not your content that's at issue, its your presentation. Again. Like always.
"The same principles applied more smartly could allow a new kind of super intelligence to emerge in which clusters of tribes solve real world problems and thus the whole system operates as an organic think tank with an IQ in the thousands."
Not unless applied consistently by willing participants. You don't have this, nor even an agreement that this is desirous. Particularly in this tribe.
"You are arguing ignorantly from ignorance for ignorance, and i am arguing for the next stage in human social intellectual communication;
and evolution, right here, right now, to take the most and make the most out of this opportunity..."seize the day!""
Wow, you missed my point by a mile, jefe. I was explaining a factor you appeared to be over looking, which is that this audience has long been deaf to your cause, not just because of how you present it, but because they aren't here for that, by and large. I feel you are wasting your time on largely deaf ears. How terrible would it be if all these solutions went unheeded because you selected the wrong venue for presentation? Why your crusade would fail, all because you wanted to ignore a certain aspect of reality that others kindly pointed out for you, so as to save you some trouble.
But no, somehow I'm in almost flame war with you? And ignorant? No. No, you need to reread a few more times and realize what *I'm* saying. Take your time.
"My solution does not prohibit people from having those same interactions on tribes which want such. Their behavior and the current situation is the glue that holds the matrix together in this local sphere.
So their non solution does prohibit a million possible good tribes from existing."
You lost me. Make a private, invite only tribe that is for this and you have no trolls and everyone agrees to play by your rules. Within that tribe.
"see the difference? I don't steal the very possibility of their social scene from them by bullying them out of it, i just make it so that if they want that kind of interaction that they know where to go."
Which is not what tribe.net is about as a company. So berating them is fruitless. They are here to provide a forum for all types of discussions, ignorant or otherwise. Make your tribes and don't worry about them.
"then i open the doors up for new kinds of interaction, and evolution can be unleashed."
Faboo, mister messiah. Just do it in your own tribe and who loses?
"again i would repeat that the idea that i am pro control is a straw man argument. What i am is pro order, not all order has to be controlling,
and in fact, say for instance with music, you really need a good drum beat to have a nice jam. Without some rules the instruments would be in cacaphony. the subtle rules of melody and harmony also apply. Music is not just any instruments playing any notes, it is manifested mathematical order."
Order comes either through agreement or through control. Since agreement will never be forthcoming on tribe, and is highly unreasonable to expect, most will assume you intend control. And in fact, your solutions of education and insistence are an advocacy of these as control mechanisms. Most folks want to simply live their lives and use a social network to chat with people. Largely, they aren't here to save the world. Help, maybe, but not many are taking the journey with you.
"learning some good empowering things about psychology and communications won't kill you or anybody malv, you people act like this is a shot with an 5 gallon drum and a needle the size of a large kitchen utensil. Quit being such a pussy over this and get over it."
No, and fuck you for asking me to live your way. As it happens I'm quite a bit ahead of you on this subject, its just not worth my time to duke it out with you to show you where. I'm trying to help you understand where you are wasting your time, and your response is to call me ignorant.
"This is not forcing conformity of thought on anybody, its asking people to have a modicum of education in order to participate in the public dialogue, which is no different than how it is now except we raise the bar a notch."
Again, the state of education in this country is pathetic. You are asking for no less than a miracle, among the unwilling. Advocating it on a social-network wide basis is absurd beyond reason. Just trying to help you see that because I know you can be blind to some aspects of social nuance. Just tryin' to help you.
"theres an underlying principle i keep trying to point out here that answers this, which is that a trollish environment is proportionally as stupid as it is trollish, but a well moderated environment is as smart as it is organized. The effect is that any group of a hundred persons who wanted to could in theory become a world class think tank on some issue if they wanted to do so."
Right and that's why you would be best served moderating your own tribe, and creating that by removing trolls. Like the tribe/net policy now says is your responsibility. You will then collect and cultivate this. In your own tribe.
"That won't happen when a third of the people present only know how to communicate via enema."
And as their messiah you have to fight for them even if they won't fight for themselves. That means not insulting them too. If you really want to help, that is. By the way, this is not a good example of drawing and attracting an audience to your message. So far I count exactly zero people on board with you. So, may I take this opportunity to point out that theory and practice are not always the same. Granted text is a horrible conveyance of messages, but still. Its not what you are saying, its how. Again. Still. You're bringing the knife of rationality to the warzone of emotionally driven conversations. Select few people come to tribe for logical discourse. Find them and stop pestering tribe to be what you want them to be. Start your own tribe, and run it your way.
In short, the culture is the problem,not the expression of it.
---------
"I agree, so we can either stick with the same culture, or create a new one, right here, right now."
Which is not why most people come to tribe.net. So right here is not the place. Your own tribe is the place.
"we have the choice, the opportunity is ours. tribe can be a footnote in history or the place where humanity wakes up."
Lots of folks are awake, but we're pretty busy spitting on each other over trivialities like what words we each choose to use. They are not even remotely ready to carry on the conversation, much less carry it on in the format that makes most sense to you. Farting in their faces for that is hardly productive or likely to gain you an audience, no matter how sensible your offerings are. Being able to understand things others do not is quite frustrating at times, I get that, but you can either nudge them gently with a gentle please join me, or throw cyber-tantrums like this that fly in the face of advocacy of rational dialog.
What would I prefer? I'd prefer you first direct your efforts to creating a tribe for this subject, and then tribe for learning how best to communicate with non-aspies, where people can give you honest feedback in a non-abusive way, so as to best offer you genuine advice on the subject from outside your own experience range and thus practical in the real world. Tribe.net is not your personal playground, its for everyone. To that end, the most open offering is all they can do. You can take your corner of it and do as you like, including regulate on trolls, or those who disagree with you whom you proclaim trolls. No one will stop you there, or say boo about it.
Cheers. -
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Re: Moderation Team Suggestions
Fri, January 16, 2009 - 12:20 AMHey Malv, remember the Eliza program?
www.manifestation.com/neuroto...iza.php3
It's kind of like arguing with one of those. In fact, I suspect PP might actually be a well written Darkbot. I wrote up one that was able to mimic a human and had people fooled for a good three weeks. What gave it away were some of the trigger words lacked a plethora of responses.
--S -
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Re: Moderation Team Suggestions
Fri, January 16, 2009 - 8:07 AMWow. Neat stuff. Hadn't seen one before. Fascinating. -
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Re: Moderation Team Suggestions
Fri, January 16, 2009 - 11:44 AMYa, Eliza is classic. I had a version for my Apple ][e back in the day.
--S -
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Re: Moderation Team Suggestions
Fri, January 16, 2009 - 2:06 PMright, well, thats a great idea shitter, just think of me as a turing test.
am i a human or a bot? can you test me to prove it one way or the other?
that would certainly make you look smarter than playing flame pong with a geek.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Whats needed is a systemic crash course in good solid psychology and ethics. Yes."
That's not why people come to social networks. They come to chat. You're asking people to save the world iwth you, which is best confined to a particular tribe or other social network where this is the goal.
--------------
No, i am asking people to save just tribe. Its incidental that could be so successful economically done my way that it would also be viral.
As a side note, you seem to be thinking this takes a lot of work. The people who would be good at it spend 10 hours or more a week here anyways, and it shouldn't take more than an hour or two a week to run the place after the slightly more costly start up phase.
If you fail to take my advice the result will be entropy and evolutionary process that much eventually exclude any system which did not recognize the principles i am pointing at. Humanity is perched on the edge of an evolutionary potential. It will take that leap sooner or later
but my aim is to make it as soon as possible.
If we take that leap here only in terms of moderation, the results will be these.
1. People will actually be able to more easily find tribes to suit their mood because people will be more lucid about what different protocol systems are. So contrary to your assumption, this actually makes the social aspect immediately run more smoothly.
"This is a troll tribe"
or,
"this is a comedy tribe"
or
"This is a troll sparring tribe"
or
"This is a geeks tribe"
or ETC.
By making such principles known people will be able then to begin juggling what is currently subliminal only because people don't have schema to express it to each other.
2. The people who have serious mental problems will get the recognition and help they need. IE, "Djarum" actually gets the attention she
needs, the moderators pay attention to the situation, and a dozen people don't get unsubbed because its all being done without a care for right or wrong just whats easy or convenient for the tribe staff.
3. Because of the increase in moderation and moderation skills, the intelligence quotient of those discussions will begin to rise on tribe globally, making those discussions more interesting, more educational, and more likely to thus attract others. Right now the reverse is true.
Tribe is actually a troll shit house which stinks to high hell and most people will not bother to wade into it.
They have driven off most of their user base over this, and yet still they are stupid enough to say "start your own tribe."
people do that until they realize they are being suckered and then move on to someplace else thats got smileys.
---------------
-----------
Well, considering the state of education in this country, you have a pipe dream on your hands.
-------------
it is as long as people like you see it that way. The moment you start standing up for real possible universes is the moment that they
start to become more likely.
--------------
"I am doing my best to solve the problem of ignorance by actually providing the cure information."
You cannot cure stupid. Certainly not over a social network. There's too much counter programming in place, for one, for two the mentality is not even desirous of illumination.
-------------
You are talking to a man who has actually accomplished theta inductions of large groups of people in person. don't tell me about the programming, let me tell you. I know all about that programming and how it works and how to operate as a code breaker.
The real truth is that everybody is searching for what only i have and what only i can give them.
I am the gateway to the stars. I know how warp works.
I am the gateway to open source think tank;
i know how group intelligence works.
I am the way out of the box.
As people pick up on that over time, they quit fighting it. theres a tipping point somewhere where somebody starts to take hold of the line i provide. As it provides stability and helps to empower them the energy becomes increasingly viral.
All it takes is that first one to stand and stop and read the writing on the wall to demonstrate to the others that it can be done.
I am abraham maslows ghost and pavlovs cerberus.
I know what human need is; and what they are actually all here looking for to chat.
The idea is not to take that away from them; it is to give them something more;
and EVERYTHING else.
-----------------------
No, they are objecting to being preached at in a way they aren't even here to listen to.
------------
They can certainly do that by saying
"i'm here to have a different sort of interaction then this and it annoys me when i come here and some geeks trying to blow my mind."
Making numerous personal attacks against me and trying to cut me down only becomes incidental proof of my point; abuse is a rampant problem on tribe.
-------------
In short, no one cares. Or not enough in any case.
------------
No, they care, they just assume that fighting over it won't work because they know the lot of evil bastards they would have to fight against.
IE, they assume its a lost cause, just like you do. That does not mean it actually is a lost cause, especially considering the electric current i'm plugged into.
----------
No amount of cutting and pasting can make the horse drink the water, no matter how many times you lead them there.
----------
Thats true of some people and not true of everyone. All it takes is a few at first. Horses which are having a hard time drinking may be led to water sometimes by other drinking horses. No, you can't make a single given horse drink. But all it takes to get a herd to drink is for one horse to demonstrate where the water is.
-----------
Its nor defensiveness, its laziness. No one is here to save the world, just talk with each other.
-------------
Thats a baseload energy potential which most people think should be blown off like steam.
If you only slightly tweak the system to harnass the baseload energy potential to bring it into phase, you have an open source think
tank with an ungodly holistic IQ.
Saving the world is incidental, you can't save the world by plotting to save the world. I'm prometheusPAN.
You show people how to play. People like new ways to play. They play more.
Oh... and tribe saves its ass from the future predictable legal suits.
oh. and maybe and maybe not we save the world.
--------------
"While somewhat true of the vast majority of people, there are plenty of people who are deeper than that to fill other roles. You assumptions
are based on an environment that creates that as its current manifested conditions. In fact, i know how to manage audiences fairly well once i get them sold. selling them is the hard thing. you almost seemed sold on geothermal power, but, now, here we are, one escalation
step away from playing a game of flame pong."
I can't point out that your energy is better spent elsewhere without being called flaming?
------------
you can point that out, or own it as an observation ie "it seems to me that X"
At this point it is flaming, but only because i was attacked by shatter.
Now i'm back to talking and chatting with you, which is certainly not any more flaming.
My time might be better elsewhere or it might be better here. If tribe was to suddenly realize that it should take my advice or its doomed,
then this was a good investment of my time, even if they just steal my ideas and run off with them.
If they on the other hand find 3 or 5 persons who want to volunteer to be global moderators and yes that does mean some small amount of real work at the beginning but not much more than an hour or two a week after that...
Then thats the solution to a thousand and one different problems if they do it well.
-------------
Your messiah complex is getting in your way again, hoss.
-----------
Right, well, heres the paradox. I have the solutions to the problems. You want warp drive or are you so fixed on making sure that nobodies feeling superior that you will deny it to spite a geek alpha dog?
I mean? come on.
The truth is i am an aspie, my ego is fluid and not fixed, and thats why i'm so odd. I don't have a messiah complex, i'm a geek.
They can look a lot alike, but the difference is i'd be happy to take you to the library and hook you up to the books sos you can be your own expert.
-----------
People can have a multitude of feelings and perspectives simultaneously. I can find good ideas sensible like anyone else, but still find the speaker errant in other ways. For the record its not your content that's at issue, its your presentation. Again. Like always.
-------------
The sane thing to do is realize i am an alien, give me some slack, and then give me some feedback jack.
You want me to put some bells and whistles on? where? how?
what?
-------------
Not unless applied consistently by willing participants. You don't have this, nor even an agreement that this is desirous. Particularly in this tribe.
-------------
Untrue, there are two human natures. One is the animal instinct and the reptile and mammalian complex, and the other is the thinking mind and the angelic complex. I don't need willing participants, i already have them. Human nature moves of its own accord.
All we have to do is open the doors. You visualize it happening in some other way than the right way to do it.
I'm not pushing anybody down any corridors, i'm opening a dozen hypergates.
They can go down them or not.
Human choice still plays in, the only question is does it just so happen that the other side of the gate is some place they want to check out?
and since the answer turns out to be yes, they turn out to flock to the gate. Thats how it works.
Dude, herding cats is even easy, all you need is one female in heat.
I'm reminded of the people who talk about warp needing a lot of energy.
Its not about how much energy its about how well you organize the small amounts of energy most relative to you;
IE the space and time and gravity energies of the space craft.
Similarly this is not about forcing people to do anything or some great momentous effort, its about a very small effort
in extremely lucid places which creates enormous rebounding echoing after effects.
--------------
Wow, you missed my point by a mile, jefe. I was explaining a factor you appeared to be over looking, which is that this audience has long been deaf to your cause, not just because of how you present it, but because they aren't here for that, by and large.
-------------
Some of them are, in fact most people actually agree with me they are just too afraid of being trolled to step forward.
I know this because i get tons of supportive emails and "don't tell anybody i said so"s.
-------------
I feel you are wasting your time on largely deaf ears. How terrible would it be if all these solutions went unheeded because you selected the wrong venue for presentation?
------------
life is school until you do it right.
Either this works or its learning curve material.
I have a very steep learning curve and i am not afraid to make mistakes inside of a social experiment.
To be even more blunt, while you and i are talking and chatting it over, shatter is actually squuezed between two sheets of glass
and doing time in a petri dish under a microscope.
I'm studying the problems as i go.
I have already had enormous successes in person, i'm just working now for something a lot harder to get based on the principles which
i have already proven.
-------------
Why your crusade would fail, all because you wanted to ignore a certain aspect of reality that others kindly pointed out for you, so as to save you some trouble.
--------------
This is becoming a leading sob story and its not that i am not willing to listen to others, in fact i have an exagerated an highly empowered capacity for critical introspection, thats required to have a steep learning curve.
So if you have something you feel is some cosmic wisdom, yo , let it pout outta ya.
-----------
Which is not what tribe.net is about as a company. So berating them is fruitless. They are here to provide a forum for all types of discussions, ignorant or otherwise. Make your tribes and don't worry about them.
-----------
There are not people on tribe who would be smart enough to enjoy my tribes, and i refuse to be part of suckering in new people to tribe only to have them be abused.
You are not listening or getting one important thing here and the same thign goes for tribe.
You can have stupid, or you can have smart. You can not have both. One arrives when you run things via anarchism and anarchy
and one arrives by having some small amount of useful social order.
Why would geeks ever come to tribe? The software is archaic and the place is the living embodiment of troll hell.
Are you getting it yet?
------------------------------
Faboo, mister messiah. Just do it in your own tribe and who loses?
-----------------
faboo mister whateva. I made a dozen tribes and the people who showed were too stupid to get it.
I had much better luck hanging out at mensa.
tribe as an over all space drives smart people out by allowing the trolling to drop the IQ through the floor.
------------
Order comes either through agreement or through control.
------------
No, thats the authoritarian model of order. Order comes when you show people good tactics to meet their needs and they like those tactics because they work better than the old ones which didn't.
I don't like the authoritarian model either, but i know better than to spite order alltogether just to spite authority.
------------
Since agreement will never be forthcoming on tribe, and is highly unreasonable to expect, most will assume you intend control.
-------------
I know this, and its certainly a problem. The solution to the problem at first is to assume that i would never be considered as a global moderator, just as a designer of the moderation processes and interfaces.
Then theres the gambit game, in which they give me it and hope i trip up with it, or in which they keep me on a very short leash.
I wouldn't mind either way i really don't care, and as an aside, once people stop fighting so hard and chat with me it becomes pretty clear i am not a control freak and that i don't have ego mania.
-----------
Most folks want to simply live their lives and use a social network to chat with people. Largely, they aren't here to save the world. Help, maybe, but not many are taking the journey with you.
---------------
I'm not trying to get people to help me save the world, i'm trying to give people a better tribe experience.
If we save the world in the process, that'd be swell.
------------
No, and fuck you for asking me to live your way. As it happens I'm quite a bit ahead of you on this subject, its just not worth my time to duke it out with you to show you where.
-------------------
Nobody ever seems to think it is, and, nobody ever does.
I'm not asking you to give up anything but shit, and i am offering you only your own growth potential back to you.
--------------
m trying to help you understand where you are wasting your time, and your response is to call me ignorant.
-----------
you can't help me to understand something which may not be true, and which is actually stemming from a knee jerk emotional bias
you had.
--------------
Again, the state of education in this country is pathetic. You are asking for no less than a miracle, among the unwilling. Advocating it on a social-network wide basis is absurd beyond reason.
-----------
What, you don't think that people come together socially over things other than propaganda wars and troll enema contests?
-------------
Right and that's why you would be best served moderating your own tribe, and creating that by removing trolls.
----------
No you are not listening. You try to cultivate trolls. You help them to evolve. You lead the conversations and you show them
interesting paths. trolls are one half of human nature. TROLLZ mostly need to chill and some minor understandings.
----------
Like the tribe/net policy now says is your responsibility. You will then collect and cultivate this. In your own tribe.
------------
Sounds great if i was evil enough to advertise in some other geeks venue to sucker people to come to tribe to actually fill the tribes i can't otherwise fill because tribe is full of people at the moment who are either TROLLZ or who don't mind them.
That rules out people into designing space ships, or people into designing arcologies, or people into saving the world by a pretty large margin.
-------------
"That won't happen when a third of the people present only know how to communicate via enema."
And as their messiah you have to fight for them even if they won't fight for themselves. That means not insulting them too.
-------------
I'm not a messiah, i'll insult the herd of cows as it suits me.
are you here to moo at me ? play flame pong like shatter? or can you contribute to something more postive than telling me to shut up and go away... with a shit faced - i-am-trying-to-be-nice-to-you-grin.
-------------
If you really want to help, that is. By the way, this is not a good example of drawing and attracting an audience to your message. So far I count exactly zero people on board with you.
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thats how it usually is till the tipping point is reached and then of course things reverse very quickly.
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So, may I take this opportunity to point out that theory and practice are not always the same. Granted text is a horrible conveyance of messages, but still. Its not what you are saying, its how. Again. Still. You're bringing the knife of rationality to the warzone of emotionally driven conversations.
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bingo, yes, its me and my athame.
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Select few people come to tribe for logical discourse. Find them and stop pestering tribe to be what you want them to be. Start your own tribe, and run it your way.
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I have. its fruitless. Tribe is now already a failure because all of the people with brains left. Years ago.
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Lots of folks are awake, but we're pretty busy spitting on each other over trivialities like what words we each choose to use.
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wakefullness is a pretty broad spectrum, theres the zombies, the cows, the sleepers, the somnambulists, the slightly awakened, the awakened, the very awakened, the slightly lucid, the medium lucid, the very lucid, the slightly enlightened, the medium enlightened, the very enlightened...
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They are not even remotely ready to carry on the conversation, much less carry it on in the format that makes most sense to you.
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Yes, isn't that so.
www.youtube.com/watch
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Farting in their faces for that is hardly productive or likely to gain you an audience, no matter how sensible your offerings are.
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i'm hardly farting in their faces. I'm fighting off a tRoLl
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Being able to understand things others do not is quite frustrating at times, I get that, but you can either nudge them gently with a gentle please join me, or throw cyber-tantrums like this that fly in the face of advocacy of rational dialog.
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I think you have missed the point. There is no room, period, for rational dialogue. Tribes position is insane, and potentially criminally insane. Do i have yours or theirs attention on that yet?
Alowing people to be abused and always saying "its not our problem nor our fault" is bullshit. It is their problem, and when it becomes gross and they do nothing about it, it is their fault.
Not you, not tribe, not shatter nor a thousand shatters and two dozen lawyers can or will change that if the shit hits the fan and somebody sues tribe for criminal negligence, or aiding and abetting, or conspiracy, or complicity, in slander, libel, internet stalking, or any of several things that they could be charged with.
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What would I prefer? I'd prefer you first direct your efforts to creating a tribe for this subject, and then tribe for learning how best to communicate with non-aspies, where people can give you honest feedback in a non-abusive way,
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I have taken these steps already, and still nobody comes. I'm certainly interested in feedback, but you must pardon me if i find it highly
improbable that anybody on tribe has any feedback about me personally worth much more than toilet paper.
occams razor sez you don't mean this as an ad hominem, but if i was paranoid delusional, i'd almost guess this was your contrived plan
to get me to go away and thus win your backstage bet with shatter as to whom could do so.
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so as to best offer you genuine advice on the subject from outside your own experience range and thus practical in the real world. Tribe.net is not your personal playground, its for everyone.
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Bullshit. Its for abusive people and the people who don't mind them, everybody else can stuff it up their ass or leave, and for the most part, they have.
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To that end, the most open offering is all they can do. You can take your corner of it and do as you like, including regulate on trolls, or those who disagree with you whom you proclaim trolls. No one will stop you there, or say boo about it.
Cheers.
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You have supersimplified everything down to trolls/TROLLS. Thats just one thing, off to the side, which is a symptom of a failed moderation system. There would be far less or virtually no trolling if a good moderation system were in place. A good moderation system is not about controlling or caging people, its about opening doors fast enough for people that they stay entertained exploring what you
throwing at them, rather than engaging in internicine combat for sport.
Unless somebody wants that, which is what several tribes are all about and i got nothing against it.
But for all of the main tribes on tribe to be more or less troll tribes is pretty telling and pretty pathetic.
Its nice to see some changes and slower evolution as for instance, lorenzo is making things slowly better in politics.
Over time, things will come to my side no matter what, because evolutions arrows point where i am pointing. -
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Re: Moderation Team Suggestions
Fri, January 16, 2009 - 2:26 PMtribes.tribe.net/interparadigmeclectic
Religion + Science in a cauldron of eclectic brew.
tribes.tribe.net/omnipedia
Help me write 1001 viral information textbooks.
tribes.tribe.net/panzcz
panzchatzone. My tribe for off topic chit chat.
tribes.tribe.net/santainc
Hypothetically speaking, using modern technology and methods,
how would a bat man esque endeavor successfully impersonate Santa,
end global poverty, and bring about peace on earth?
tribes.tribe.net/subtlebody
Subtle Anatomy, chakras, aura(s), Consciousess...
tribes.tribe.net/thinkstarship
a 50 year plan to colinize our solar system as deep and as far away as pluto.
tribes.tribe.net/thoughtship
Radical Collaboration Sociology and Psychology
tribes.tribe.net/truthosaurs
Politics And Government
tribes.tribe.net/acce
Arcology Core of Civil Engineers
Permaculture, Social and Civil Engineering.
tribes.tribe.net/conflictresolution
Formal Conversational Logic, Non Violent Communication, Expert Psychology.
Got an argument?
is the other party willing to come to a new tribe to settle it?
Got troll problems, need advice?
tribes.tribe.net/packdeltas
I created this tribe to help somebody with some serious social maladjustment
issues. Do you or does somebody you know need help understanding what humans
are really thinking, and why they act like they do?
tribes.tribe.net/psychonautics
Serious self exploration, meditation, magick, meta physics, personal
evolution.
tribes.tribe.net/scifiparables
science fiction with real science added back into the mix.
Collaborative story telling, group role playing.
tribes.tribe.net/tarotmaze
Advanced study of esoteric Tarot, Tables of correspondence, Mythic architectures,
the Wheel of the year, And dream symbols and symbology.
tribes.tribe.net/thoughtexperiments
Creative collaborative group visualization and hig order problem solving
process. Einstienian thought experiments.
transhumanists.tribe.net/
Rational exploration of technological enhancement of human potentials,
longevity, computer/Neural interfaces, Borg Technologies, Techological
Singularities, and Futurism.
(this last one i didn't create, i inherited.) -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Moderation Team Suggestions
Fri, January 16, 2009 - 2:36 PMfaq.tribe.net/thread/d40b...7f1fbc0afd8b
lets hear it for the crab.
this is what tribers really think, no matter what shatter or malv try to tells us. -
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Re: Moderation Team Suggestions
Fri, January 16, 2009 - 5:12 PMStop Trolling, Prometheus.
--S -
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Re: Moderation Team Suggestions
Sat, January 17, 2009 - 6:01 PMshitter, projecting what you are doing at somebody else...
and pretending its what they are doing...its like...
shitter waves his hand and sez;
"You are the troll, i'm the police officer."
Very cute third rate jedi mind trick. not work on me.
stop trolling, shitter.
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Re: Moderation Team Suggestions
Sat, January 17, 2009 - 6:01 PM -
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Re: Moderation Team Suggestions
Sat, January 17, 2009 - 6:03 PMWe began this train trip in Philadelphia earlier today. It is fitting that we did so - because it was there that our American journey began. It was there that a group of farmers and lawyers, merchants and soldiers, gathered to declare their independence and lay claim to a destiny that they were being denied.
It was a risky thing, meeting as they did in that summer of 1776. There was no guarantee that their fragile experiment would find success. More than once in those early years did the odds seem insurmountable. More than once did the fishermen, laborers, and craftsmen who called themselves an army face the prospect of defeat.
And yet, they were willing to put all they were and all they had on the line - their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor - for a set of ideals that continue to light the world. That we are equal. That our rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness come not from our laws, but from our maker. And that a government of, by, and for the people can endure. It was these ideals that led us to declare independence, and craft our constitution, producing documents that were imperfect but had within them, like our nation itself, the capacity to be made more perfect.
A few decades after the framers met in Philadelphia, our new union faced its first true test. The White House was in flames, and the British were advancing on Baltimore. That's when the fate of our nation fell to the troops at Fort McHenry. They were a varied lot, these troops: sailors, militiamen, and even a runaway slave. But on one long and rainy night, they beat back the greatest navy that the world had ever known. And when that night was over, they raised a flag in triumph, inspiring an onlooker to compose a poem that became the Star-Spangled Banner.
We are here today not simply to pay tribute to those patriots who founded our nation in Philadelphia or defended it in Baltimore, but to take up the cause for which they gave so much. The trials we face are very different now, but severe in their own right. Only a handful of times in our history has a generation been confronted with challenges so vast. An economy that is faltering. Two wars, one that needs to be ended responsibly, one that needs to be waged wisely. A planet that is warming from our unsustainable dependence on oil.
And yet while our problems may be new, what is required to overcome them is not. What is required is the same perseverance and idealism that those first patriots displayed. What is required is a new declaration of independence, not just in our nation, but in our own lives - from ideology and small thinking, prejudice and bigotry - an appeal not to our easy instincts but to our better angels.
That is the reason I launched my campaign for the presidency nearly two years ago. I did so in the belief that the most fundamental American ideal, that a better life is in store for all those willing to work for it, was slipping out of reach. That Washington was serving the interests of the few, not the many. And that our politics had grown too small for the scale of the challenges we faced.
But I also believed something else. I believed that our future is our choice, and that if we could just recognize ourselves in one another and bring everyone together - Democrats, Republicans, and Independents, north, south, east and west, black, white, Latino, Asian, and Native American, gay and straight, disabled and not - then not only would we restore hope and opportunity in places that yearned for both, but maybe, just maybe, we might perfect our union in the process.
This is what I believed, but you made this belief real. You proved once more that people who love this country can change it. And as I prepare to leave for Washington on a trip that you made possible, know that I will not be traveling alone. I will be taking with me some of the men and women I met along the way, Americans from every corner of this country, whose hopes and heartaches were the core of our cause; whose dreams and struggles have become my own.
Theirs are the voices I will carry with me every day in the White House. Theirs are the stories I will be thinking of when we deliver the changes you elected me to make. When we are seeing new jobs created that pay more to those who work them, I will be thinking of people like Kevin and Kirsten Meehan, who can't afford to turn on the heat or pay rent, and are tapping into Kevin's 401k to help support their two young children.
When our children are graduating from newer, better schools that prepare them to be good citizens and sought-after workers, I will be thinking of middle school teachers like Rosa Mendoza, who is giving her students the chance to fulfill their God-given potential.
When quality health care is no longer something we hope for, but something we can count on, I will be thinking of people like Patricia Stiles, who was diagnosed with a serious illness just as her husband lost his pension and her kids' tuitions were coming due.
These are the stories that will drive me in the days ahead. They are different stories, told by men and women whose journeys may seem separate. And yet, what you showed me time and again is that no matter who we are or what we look like, no matter where we come from or what faith we practice, we are a people of common hopes and common dreams, who ask only for what was promised us as Americans - that we might make of our lives what we will and see our children climb higher than we did.
We recognize that such enormous challenges will not be solved quickly. There will be false starts and setbacks, frustrations and disappointments. And we will be called to show patience even as we act with fierce urgency.
But we should never forget that we are the heirs of those early patriots, ordinary men and women who refused to give up when it all seemed so improbable; and who somehow believed that they had the power to make the world anew. That is the spirit that we must reclaim today.
For the American Revolution did not end when British guns fell silent. It was never something to be won only on a battlefield or fulfilled only in our founding documents. It was not simply a struggle to break free from empire and declare independence. The American Revolution was - and remains - an ongoing struggle "in the minds and hearts of the people" to live up to our founding creed.
Starting now, let's take up in our own lives the work of perfecting our union.
Let's build a government that is responsible to the people, and accept our own responsibilities as citizens to hold our government accountable.
Let's all of us do our part to rebuild this country.
Let's make sure this election is not the end of what we do to change America, but the beginning.
Join me in this effort. Join one another in this effort. And together, mindful of our proud history, hopeful for the future, let's seek a better world in our time. Thank you. -
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Re: Moderation Team Suggestions
Sat, January 17, 2009 - 6:04 PMall your tribe belong to TROLLZ.
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Re: Moderation Team Suggestions
Sat, January 17, 2009 - 6:04 PMStarting now, let's take up in our own lives the work of perfecting our union.
Let's build a government that is responsible to the people, and accept our own responsibilities as citizens to hold our government accountable.
Let's all of us do our part to rebuild this country. -
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Re: Moderation Team Suggestions
Sat, January 17, 2009 - 6:05 PMLet's all of us do our part to rebuild these TRIBES -
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Re: Moderation Team Suggestions
Sat, January 17, 2009 - 6:10 PMwww.youtube.com/watch
we have the technology. we have the capability to make the worlds first...
uhmmm...
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Re: Moderation Team Suggestions
Sat, January 17, 2009 - 6:19 PMSo who are you talking too anyway?
PeePee has a Pottie mouth. Shame on you.
--S -
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Re: Moderation Team Suggestions
Sat, January 17, 2009 - 6:37 PMSo who are you talking too anyway?
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the important thing for you to consider is, not you, other than the fact that i have to play pong with you.
shitter is a troll. shame on him.
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Re: Moderation Team Suggestions
Sat, January 17, 2009 - 8:46 PMI"m not a troll. Never have been. I express my views and beliefs as I see if. If people disagree, like your majesty, then they scream troll. If I agree they think I'm wonderful and creative.
You've already proven this. You assumed because I sided with you on a thread that I was wonderful person. I disagree on another and Im an evil bastard.
You need to come to accept that in this world, there is such a thing as moderation, and you should look into it. You don't have to live on the extreme sides of every issue. Hopefully you'll learn this as you get older and gain some wisdom.
--S
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